6 ms·

Are you really claiming that left wing idealists accept racist hate propaganda -- as long as it is from a billion of people that seems "weaker" than five millio

by berntb 14y ago

Are you really claiming that left wing idealists accept racist hate propaganda -- as long as it is from a billion of people that seems "weaker" than five millions of people? (I am not arguing, I have no better explanation for this craziness myself.)

lmm 14y ago
The biggest problem with leftist thought is its tendency to degenerate into paternalism. It's easy to see the antisemitism of a largely poor, uneducated group as "not their own fault"; they're a product of their upbringing and environment. To criticize them for being antisemitic is as unfair and pointless as to criticize a savage for, well, savagery. Under this worldview, what these antisemitic poor people need is love, education and a chance to better themselves; give them this, and the antisemitism would probably wither away (except for a few truly bad individuals, who it would then be perfectly legitimate to criticize). By contrast the Nazis had no such excuse; the Germans were quite possibly the best-educated and most advanced nation in the world. Not to mention the way they put their antisemitism into practice. (speaking as a leftist myself)
- icebraining 14y ago
  Yes, that seems about right.
- berntb 14y ago
  Oh my god. :-) Off the top of my head... 1. As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. The left wingers must KNOW what they are supporting! 2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! 3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. So it isn't coherent. 4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? 5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? 6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. [Also, that was a high culture thousands of years before my ancestors had writing.] Etc, etc, etc. (Still not arguing, fascinated. I have no clue what the Hell political believers on all sides are smoking -- I just want to live in a country without any of them.)
  - lmm 14y ago
    >As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. Dictators do use it, but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. >2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! Eh. Maybe. I suspect those who were bothered by this would argue that it's not about race, it's about socioeconomic status. That those of lower socioeconomic status need/deserve help that the rest of us don't is pretty much the core thesis of the left. >3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. Even in western europe, you're largely talking about a ghettoized underclass. There's not a lot of tolerance of antisemitism from e.g. serious academics (muslim or otherwise). The nouveau riche sometimes get away with it, but again they're being looked on with pity by the left, and it's assumed they got those attitudes in their early days. >4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? I don't think you see leftists following the same Jewish conspiracy theories as Iranian peasants. Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. >5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? Speaking for myself, yes that should be taken into account. If you're asking about the orthodoxy, I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. If you're thinking about it in terms of preventing re-offending, an uneducated person probably needs to take more time before they're ready to re-enter society. Not that the current prison system is good at helping with that. >6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. Not really AIUI. There's small a university-educated middle class in the capital, from whom we hear a disproportionate amount in the media because they're the ones who speak English. And these people are quite possibly less anti-semitic than the general population. Certainly the left would expect them to be.
icebraining 14y ago
I wouldn't say accept, at least not the ones I know. But they certainly downplay it a lot, yes.
batista 14y ago
Weakness and power does not count populations, and especially not population dispersed. E.g A colonial power, like England that had a population of 30 million people, ruled colonies of 1 billion (and more) people 7-8 decades ago. And it's not Israel vs every muslim country, it's mostly Israel vs the palestinians. Check any map of Palestinian territories, 1930 to present, to see which entity has more power. Or check a tally of casualties on both sides. That said, it's not "racist hate propaganda" that left wing idealists accept. That's how Israel describes it (understandably). What they do accept is that other people can be right to protest against Israel, and that that does not automatically means "antisemitism" in the historical sense. Believe it or not, the incredible harm (genocide) done by the Nazi's to jews, does not automatically translate to modern day Israel being on the right against it's neighbours, or generally in any possible conflict.
- berntb 14y ago
  You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. Start with e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Arab_newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_cen... Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. That were a larger number than the Palestinians, which happened connected to a civil war. And so on.
  - batista 14y ago
    >You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. No, I deny: 1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace. 2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things? >Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though. Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel). (Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).

by berntb 14y ago

lmm 14y ago

The biggest problem with leftist thought is its tendency to degenerate into paternalism. It's easy to see the antisemitism of a largely poor, uneducated group as "not their own fault"; they're a product of their upbringing and environment. To criticize them for being antisemitic is as unfair and pointless as to criticize a savage for, well, savagery. Under this worldview, what these antisemitic poor people need is love, education and a chance to better themselves; give them this, and the antisemitism would probably wither away (except for a few truly bad individuals, who it would then be perfectly legitimate to criticize). By contrast the Nazis had no such excuse; the Germans were quite possibly the best-educated and most advanced nation in the world. Not to mention the way they put their antisemitism into practice. (speaking as a leftist myself)

icebraining 14y ago
Yes, that seems about right.
berntb 14y ago
Oh my god. :-) Off the top of my head... 1. As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. The left wingers must KNOW what they are supporting! 2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! 3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. So it isn't coherent. 4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? 5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? 6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. [Also, that was a high culture thousands of years before my ancestors had writing.] Etc, etc, etc. (Still not arguing, fascinated. I have no clue what the Hell political believers on all sides are smoking -- I just want to live in a country without any of them.)
- lmm 14y ago
  >As far as I can tell, this antisemitism thing is mainly from dictators that need an external enemy to hate. (A universal phenomenon in those countries -- and yes, using external enemies is not unique to dictators.) Just see how Iran motivates anything with attacks against Israel. Dictators do use it, but it works because the population supports it. The people really do hate Israel and the Jews. >2. Isn't it racism to accept so low standards for [mainly ethnic] groups and assume them to be unable to be responsible for their actions?! Eh. Maybe. I suspect those who were bothered by this would argue that it's not about race, it's about socioeconomic status. That those of lower socioeconomic status need/deserve help that the rest of us don't is pretty much the core thesis of the left. >3. This tolerance (of e.g. antisemitism) goes for Muslims living in Western Europe too, which hardly have these excuses. Even in western europe, you're largely talking about a ghettoized underclass. There's not a lot of tolerance of antisemitism from e.g. serious academics (muslim or otherwise). The nouveau riche sometimes get away with it, but again they're being looked on with pity by the left, and it's assumed they got those attitudes in their early days. >4. Why do the left accept the arguments and world view (re Israel), when they at the same time argues it comes from a bunch of illiterates that aren't responsible for their actions/opinions? I don't think you see leftists following the same Jewish conspiracy theories as Iranian peasants. Many on the left do believe Israel shouldn't exist in its current form, simply because we don't think it was right for the UN to arbitrarily confiscate the land of a bunch of (largely) innocent Palestinians. >5. Should people with low education get lower punishments for crimes? Should they get no punishment if they can't read and don't understand the law? Speaking for myself, yes that should be taken into account. If you're asking about the orthodoxy, I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. If you're thinking about it in terms of preventing re-offending, an uneducated person probably needs to take more time before they're ready to re-enter society. Not that the current prison system is good at helping with that. >6. Afaik, e.g. Iran has a quite large part educated of their population. Not really AIUI. There's small a university-educated middle class in the capital, from whom we hear a disproportionate amount in the media because they're the ones who speak English. And these people are quite possibly less anti-semitic than the general population. Certainly the left would expect them to be.

icebraining 14y ago

I wouldn't say accept, at least not the ones I know. But they certainly downplay it a lot, yes.

batista 14y ago

Weakness and power does not count populations, and especially not population dispersed. E.g A colonial power, like England that had a population of 30 million people, ruled colonies of 1 billion (and more) people 7-8 decades ago. And it's not Israel vs every muslim country, it's mostly Israel vs the palestinians. Check any map of Palestinian territories, 1930 to present, to see which entity has more power. Or check a tally of casualties on both sides. That said, it's not "racist hate propaganda" that left wing idealists accept. That's how Israel describes it (understandably). What they do accept is that other people can be right to protest against Israel, and that that does not automatically means "antisemitism" in the historical sense. Believe it or not, the incredible harm (genocide) done by the Nazi's to jews, does not automatically translate to modern day Israel being on the right against it's neighbours, or generally in any possible conflict.

berntb 14y ago
You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. Start with e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Arab_newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Antisemitism#20th_cen... Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. That were a larger number than the Palestinians, which happened connected to a civil war. And so on.
- batista 14y ago
  >You seem to deny that antisemitism hate propaganda is prevalent in the Muslim world? This is well documented. No, I deny: 1) that this is the kind of "antisemitism hate propaganda" that "left wing idealists" (in the western world) embrace. 2) That this "antisemitism hate propaganda" is even prevalent or has any consequence in the Muslim world. I _lived and worked_ in some muslim countries. They could not care less for this stuff. Some do believe it, but it's not like they act on it. Do you know how many people in the Bible Belt believe similar things? >Continue reading about the expulsion of the Jews for religious reasons -- they had the same religion as the state religion of Israel, if you want more. Well, I know about that. I'm from Europe, we like History there. Doesn't have to do with present day muslim-israel relation though. Actually, did you know that in the 19th century (and before), when Jews were persecuted in Europe, Russia and such, they lived mighty fine alongside muslim populations in muslim countries? FWIW, the majority of jews persecution has happened by Europeans, by far. Including the Nazi's of course. Muslim states don't even come close, and even then they don't do it for religious reasons, but for political ones (ie they are not against jewism but against the politics of the state of Israel). (Oh, and another tibbit: pro WW-II, the US was also full of anti-Semitism propaganda).