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Switching from a working, integrated solution (SAS) to a untested collection of random scripts (R or Python??) is a horrendous idea, and I would be willing to b

Switching from a working, integrated solution (SAS) to a untested collection of random scripts (R or Python??) is a horrendous idea, and I would be willing to bet that the people in charge of implementing this brilliant move saved the French state quite a bit of money by blocking it. If they had started with the R or with Python, that would have likely been a better solution - but that doesn't mean that switching, especially just because some new employee convinced the director they'd save money with a half-baked idea, is not. I work for a company whose entire business is basically replacing various dedicated internal tooling scripts with an integrated, extremely costly solution, and we mostly sell to other businesses. Most people who buy this are extremely happy to get rid of their kludge of scripts, and we very rarely feel pressure from such alternatives (our other B2B, also extremely expensive, competitors, are the main thing we get compared with). Specialized software often works much better, and makes a lot of sense past some scale, than in-house solutions. Especially if there are no big geopolitical risks - which there aren't with SAS for the French government.

soraminazuki 1y ago
> Especially if there are no big geopolitical risks - which there aren't with SAS for the French government. Are you serious? Especially when officials working for well-respected international organizations are being sanctioned for their work out of political reasons? This entire article wouldn't exist if there were no geopolitical risk. From the article: > “Carniaux … was asked by the [French Senate] commission to guarantee that French citizens’ data hosted by Microsoft would never be transmitted to foreign authorities without the agreement of the French authorities. He replied: ‘No, I can’t guarantee that,'” the report stated. If this isn't geopolitical risk, I don't know what is. It's clear that your stated job constantly exposed you to all the talking points of mega cloud platforms. But there are negative consequences too, and they're very real.
- tsimionescu 1y ago
  Oops, I've made a huge mistake here, apologies. I confused SAS for SAP, the German business stats company. My post was entirely from this wrong perspective, that it would be replacing EU business software with open source software. In light of the new understanding, I fully agree with you that it was extremely shortsighted and sad to have tech leadership oppose a project which directly gives a US company access to such sensitive data with open source alternatives.
  - robertlagrant 1y ago
    That makes much more sense! Swapping SAP for some Python scripts is pretty risky.
Saline9515 1y ago
- The division doing the change wasn't doing anything critical, mostly yearly statistical analysis reports, and cost estimates for new laws. The move could have been done over a year or two. Most public workers aren't overwhelmed with work, to put it mildly. - SAS language is horrendous, the IDE is stuck in the 2000´s, and everyone was doing SQL queries inside it as a result. SAS is obsolete compared to what R or Python can do. Career-wise, it's a dead end for workers who use it. - The French state is heavily indebted, so any cost-saving measure is welcome to reduce the burden on the taxpayer.
- xwolfi 1y ago
  But everyone experienced in such a "migration" would challenge your flawed impression that there would be cost saving. SAS is in fact used in many serious companies (I know it's used at the fraud department of Bouygues Telecom, for instance) so you're not gonna dead-end yourself all that much, you can do the python+r stuff on your own probably, as long as the reports are there, and call them from SAS if you cannot stand it. Meanwhile, nothing has to move, nothing has to change, and your non-critical division will continue to cost exactly as budgeted instead of going through unknown waters just because maybe switching to something new might be ... cheap eventually ? Plus this has nothing to do with Microsoft really, as most cost is in Windows and its integration. It's hard to replace the global policies of Windows by an alternative.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    IDK man, getting some department out from under the thumb of the big org's IT is pretty much SOP when BigCo has a "oh crap we gotta compete in this niche, spin up an internal startup" moment. Yeah, the plan is insane if you're talking about the entire french government.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    What are the costs of using python/R? I'm not talking about the full french gov, but a single division (around 25 workers), for which the procurement is done. This is in reality a clear cost-saving measure, as you may have to pay one time for training, which is however done by another division of the French State (the statistical body, INSEE), and those career workers don't get bonuses or are paid overtime anyway. Afaik other "big corps" are moving away from SAS as graduate only know Python/R nowadays, which are better and more flexible tools. Improving tooling and reducing costs are just a thing for private companies. Yeah, the horse carriage drivers weren't happy when the gasoline engine appeared. Imagine the switching costs! There are still horse carriages around! Horses are reliable! You can drive a car on your own!

soraminazuki 1y ago

> Especially if there are no big geopolitical risks - which there aren't with SAS for the French government. Are you serious? Especially when officials working for well-respected international organizations are being sanctioned for their work out of political reasons? This entire article wouldn't exist if there were no geopolitical risk. From the article: > “Carniaux … was asked by the [French Senate] commission to guarantee that French citizens’ data hosted by Microsoft would never be transmitted to foreign authorities without the agreement of the French authorities. He replied: ‘No, I can’t guarantee that,'” the report stated. If this isn't geopolitical risk, I don't know what is. It's clear that your stated job constantly exposed you to all the talking points of mega cloud platforms. But there are negative consequences too, and they're very real.

tsimionescu 1y ago
Oops, I've made a huge mistake here, apologies. I confused SAS for SAP, the German business stats company. My post was entirely from this wrong perspective, that it would be replacing EU business software with open source software. In light of the new understanding, I fully agree with you that it was extremely shortsighted and sad to have tech leadership oppose a project which directly gives a US company access to such sensitive data with open source alternatives.
- robertlagrant 1y ago
  That makes much more sense! Swapping SAP for some Python scripts is pretty risky.

Saline9515 1y ago

- The division doing the change wasn't doing anything critical, mostly yearly statistical analysis reports, and cost estimates for new laws. The move could have been done over a year or two. Most public workers aren't overwhelmed with work, to put it mildly. - SAS language is horrendous, the IDE is stuck in the 2000´s, and everyone was doing SQL queries inside it as a result. SAS is obsolete compared to what R or Python can do. Career-wise, it's a dead end for workers who use it. - The French state is heavily indebted, so any cost-saving measure is welcome to reduce the burden on the taxpayer.

xwolfi 1y ago
But everyone experienced in such a "migration" would challenge your flawed impression that there would be cost saving. SAS is in fact used in many serious companies (I know it's used at the fraud department of Bouygues Telecom, for instance) so you're not gonna dead-end yourself all that much, you can do the python+r stuff on your own probably, as long as the reports are there, and call them from SAS if you cannot stand it. Meanwhile, nothing has to move, nothing has to change, and your non-critical division will continue to cost exactly as budgeted instead of going through unknown waters just because maybe switching to something new might be ... cheap eventually ? Plus this has nothing to do with Microsoft really, as most cost is in Windows and its integration. It's hard to replace the global policies of Windows by an alternative.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  IDK man, getting some department out from under the thumb of the big org's IT is pretty much SOP when BigCo has a "oh crap we gotta compete in this niche, spin up an internal startup" moment. Yeah, the plan is insane if you're talking about the entire french government.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  What are the costs of using python/R? I'm not talking about the full french gov, but a single division (around 25 workers), for which the procurement is done. This is in reality a clear cost-saving measure, as you may have to pay one time for training, which is however done by another division of the French State (the statistical body, INSEE), and those career workers don't get bonuses or are paid overtime anyway. Afaik other "big corps" are moving away from SAS as graduate only know Python/R nowadays, which are better and more flexible tools. Improving tooling and reducing costs are just a thing for private companies. Yeah, the horse carriage drivers weren't happy when the gasoline engine appeared. Imagine the switching costs! There are still horse carriages around! Horses are reliable! You can drive a car on your own!