3 ms·

Yeah, I never empathized with Mark and Jez so his thesis falls apart for me. Maybe he’s the baddie?

nickkell 1y ago
You don't see any of yourself in the pair? I found a lot of their neurotic behaviour relatable. Butter the toast, eat the toast, shit the toast... God, life's relentless.
Nursie 1y ago
I think this is an important point - it's very easy to find oneself slipping into the protagonists' viewpoints, in a lot of media the protagonist is 'good', we see the story unfold from their viewpoint, then sympathise and empathise with them, even when they make mistakes, their motivations were pure, and what’s unfolding isn’t due to problems with them exactly. But in shows like this, in quite a lot of sitcoms with more cringey aspects, the protagonist is not necessarily a good person and they are often undone by their own pettiness, selfishness etc. Certainly in UK comedy anyway. Look at Fawlty Towers, The Office... Blackadder to a certain extent. So when the article says this - > It’s natural when experiencing any story to identify and sympathize with the protagonist. Yes and no - this is something that creators can play with and may make deliberately jarring. See 'Lolita' for an extreme example. The article even brings up Walter White, saying - "we are drawn to root for the primary subject of the story". If you're still rooting for Walter by the end of Breaking Bad... were we watching the same show?
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  Seinfeld also dipped into this, IIRC. it was one of the reasons the series finale ended up w/ all of the main characters in jail and having all of their terrible behavior called out.
- Lio 1y ago
  Well… part of what made Breaking Bad so good was the artful way it manipulated your feelings for Walter. By the end I was back rooting for him. I wanted his plan to rescue Jessie (and to an extent Skyler) to work. It felt like a partial atonement[1] and allowed to show wrap up satisfyingly. I feel the same way the same way about Tony Soprano. A terrible person with terrible behaviour but I still root for him at the end. 1. Of course nothing would really atone for his actions in reality but narrative isn’t reality.
  - Nursie 1y ago
    By that point I was hoping Jessie got out of it all alive, because while he was clearly a dumbass with questionable morals, nobody deserved what he was going through, and the abuse he'd put up with at the hands of Walt among others. Walt was still fascinating to watch and maybe I approved of or disliked some of his individual actions, and we definitely had deep insight to his character by then, but I don't think I'd describe myself as rooting for him or experiencing his story in a particularly sympathetic way. I wasn't experiencing the story through him by then as I might have been early on, if that makes sense.
    - Lio 1y ago
      Hopefully this came across but I'm definitely not always rooting for either Tony Sorprano or Walter White. Like you say, you experience the story through these dubious characters. Especially on multiple watch throughs you can really come to despise them but the series are so well made that the writers can bring you round multiple times. There's something about the cognative disonence of how most people experience life there. I was once told that most people that do bad things just convince themselves that what they're doing is actually OK. So someone that steals from cars blames the car's owner for leaving it unlocked. That rings true for me. They're not sociopaths, they're bending their reality to justify their actions. That's obvious criminality but I think that almost everyone is doing something like that to some extent. For example, just look at the popularity of fast fashion that's almost certainly made with slave labour. At this point in time I don't think anyone buying from Shien[1] or Temu[2] could be in any doubt. They must know, they just don't care. They're still just everyday people. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyg7n1d85go.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyg7n1d85go.amp 2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67752413.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67752413.amp
      - worthless-trash 1y ago
        I wrote a response to this many times, you write some good points. I like how you can keep disconnected and non judgemental while somehow making it appear that both ordering from Temu and grand theft auto are similarly bad.
3eb7988a1663 1y ago
It is hard to see many people empathizing with Mark when he routinely makes such terrible decisions. You want him to win, but even hearing his rationalizations -some of his actions are insane.

You don't see any of yourself in the pair? I found a lot of their neurotic behaviour relatable. Butter the toast, eat the toast, shit the toast... God, life's relentless.

Nursie 1y ago

I think this is an important point - it's very easy to find oneself slipping into the protagonists' viewpoints, in a lot of media the protagonist is 'good', we see the story unfold from their viewpoint, then sympathise and empathise with them, even when they make mistakes, their motivations were pure, and what’s unfolding isn’t due to problems with them exactly. But in shows like this, in quite a lot of sitcoms with more cringey aspects, the protagonist is not necessarily a good person and they are often undone by their own pettiness, selfishness etc. Certainly in UK comedy anyway. Look at Fawlty Towers, The Office... Blackadder to a certain extent. So when the article says this - > It’s natural when experiencing any story to identify and sympathize with the protagonist. Yes and no - this is something that creators can play with and may make deliberately jarring. See 'Lolita' for an extreme example. The article even brings up Walter White, saying - "we are drawn to root for the primary subject of the story". If you're still rooting for Walter by the end of Breaking Bad... were we watching the same show?

red-iron-pine 1y ago
Seinfeld also dipped into this, IIRC. it was one of the reasons the series finale ended up w/ all of the main characters in jail and having all of their terrible behavior called out.
Lio 1y ago
Well… part of what made Breaking Bad so good was the artful way it manipulated your feelings for Walter. By the end I was back rooting for him. I wanted his plan to rescue Jessie (and to an extent Skyler) to work. It felt like a partial atonement[1] and allowed to show wrap up satisfyingly. I feel the same way the same way about Tony Soprano. A terrible person with terrible behaviour but I still root for him at the end. 1. Of course nothing would really atone for his actions in reality but narrative isn’t reality.
- Nursie 1y ago
  By that point I was hoping Jessie got out of it all alive, because while he was clearly a dumbass with questionable morals, nobody deserved what he was going through, and the abuse he'd put up with at the hands of Walt among others. Walt was still fascinating to watch and maybe I approved of or disliked some of his individual actions, and we definitely had deep insight to his character by then, but I don't think I'd describe myself as rooting for him or experiencing his story in a particularly sympathetic way. I wasn't experiencing the story through him by then as I might have been early on, if that makes sense.
  - Lio 1y ago
    Hopefully this came across but I'm definitely not always rooting for either Tony Sorprano or Walter White. Like you say, you experience the story through these dubious characters. Especially on multiple watch throughs you can really come to despise them but the series are so well made that the writers can bring you round multiple times. There's something about the cognative disonence of how most people experience life there. I was once told that most people that do bad things just convince themselves that what they're doing is actually OK. So someone that steals from cars blames the car's owner for leaving it unlocked. That rings true for me. They're not sociopaths, they're bending their reality to justify their actions. That's obvious criminality but I think that almost everyone is doing something like that to some extent. For example, just look at the popularity of fast fashion that's almost certainly made with slave labour. At this point in time I don't think anyone buying from Shien[1] or Temu[2] could be in any doubt. They must know, they just don't care. They're still just everyday people. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyg7n1d85go.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyg7n1d85go.amp 2. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67752413.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67752413.amp
    - worthless-trash 1y ago
      I wrote a response to this many times, you write some good points. I like how you can keep disconnected and non judgemental while somehow making it appear that both ordering from Temu and grand theft auto are similarly bad.

3eb7988a1663 1y ago

It is hard to see many people empathizing with Mark when he routinely makes such terrible decisions. You want him to win, but even hearing his rationalizations -some of his actions are insane.