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>What I'm trying to say is: like in many offices, any slight change made users hostile, I remember doing a Windows 7 deployment for a customer, and one of thei

>What I'm trying to say is: like in many offices, any slight change made users hostile, I remember doing a Windows 7 deployment for a customer, and one of their staff had 3 A4 binders. Probably 1000 pages, of typed notes about how Windows XP works. The second she sat down at her new Windows 7 machine it was like she had lost her memory. She was instantly aggravated and couldnt find the start menu. Dropped her windows xp binders in the bin and told me to effectively "get lost" so she can relearn it from scratch. I was thrown. Like its basically the same system with some UI tweaks but she was acting like I had pushed her onto debian or something.

MarkSweep 1y ago
I’ve had a few family relations approach technology this way. I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. We have developed this intuition by either using or creating software for a long time. Like often people are scared to click random buttons or explore menus. We have used software for a long time, so we know that any destructive act would be proceeded by an “are you sure?” dialog box. I think I would be in their shoes if I ever tried to change the oil on my car. I may be able to follow a procedure. But I would not deviate from it. It would not try to pop the covers off unrelated parts to peek into the alternator, for fear of electric shock. Anyways, my rambling point is ideally we people would make themselves more familiar with how to understand the technology they work with everyday. But we should have empathy for people who have not contorted their minds to understand the peculiar behavior of software.
- jact 1y ago
  Yes, this is extremely accurate. Many people are very afraid to explore or experiment with any software program out of fear of breaking things.
  - xwolfi 1y ago
    Because when they break things they lose hours of work they cannot afford to lose. My parents had a small business and if my mom mis-clicked somewhere and deleted some important thing, she would enter a panicked rage as she'd lose half the day with some remote tech support. She would never touch a computer after work, because it just stressed her, she found them absolutely unbearable, also because the tech support was unbearably obnoxious.
    - jact 1y ago
      This is true — which is why simple version control should be de rigueur in any important application where it’s feasible. The move to put everything in /the cloud is irritating but probably in part driven by this consumer complaint. Not that the boomers will ever learn.
- KronisLV 1y ago
  > I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. This is a delightful way to put it! I have older relatives that can't really tell apart where a website ends and where their operating system begins, due to not really knowing about the client server model (even when it's explained to them) and I worry about the generation that will also just grow up with phone apps. That's why I actually liked the classes back in school where we had all sorts of office program tasks to do, though I wish some of the later stuff from university would also be more widespread. Probably not programming for everyone (unless something practical with like Python), but just a few lessons on how the Internet works.
dotancohen 1y ago
> she was acting like I had pushed her onto debian or something. I've actually upgraded elderly people's computers from various Windows versions to various Ubuntu versions. I always tell them it's the newest Windows version, and very rarely have seen any problems. No joke, one of the biggest issues I saw was finding a solitaire program similar enough to the windows solitaire program.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  As someone who liked windows seven I find Ubuntu clearer than windows 11.
- protocolture 1y ago
  Not @ you in particular, but theres a rogue "computer guy" in my dads town who literally goes around "fixing" elderly peoples computers for a few hundred bucks, all he does is format them and install linux mint. My dad, who is a little bit technical from a long time ago, spends a lot of time helping distraught users reinstall windows (to get some application going that the brains trust of the middle of nowhere australia cant get going on linux) or just helping people recover photos etc from cloud backups. Guys like an old west linux bandit or something.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    For what it's worth I've never been paid for that service. And I go to great trouble in enumerating the applications that people use and the files that they access, including cloud files.
tacticus 1y ago
> Probably 1000 pages, of typed notes about how Windows XP works. Probably more than microsoft themselves maintained.
- protocolture 1y ago
  From what I remember it was like: To do X, click start <screenshot of start> and select documents <screenshot of documents> To do Y, click start <screenshot of start> and select calculator.... etc etc.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  I wonder if she found any UI bugs that they don't know about.
GoblinSlayer 1y ago
Changing the UI was the biggest mistake by microsoft, can't overestimate it.
chithanh 1y ago
That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. Like if they want to go to a certain office in a building: My "instructions" would be to go to department foo, room A5.303 (made up number). Their instructions are something like "in that red brick building, take the elevator to 5th floor, turn left and then again left into the hallway, second door on the right side". If they navigate UI the same way, then of course every element that is moved slightly to a new place or grouped differently will cause their mental model of how things work to collapse.
- moritzwarhier 1y ago
  It's also how IT professionals navigate software interfaces! I'm amused by the amount of flak you are getting here. Being fast and efficient with any piece of UI of course means to replace navigation and discovery with memory and intuition, at least in part! Not just keyboard shortcuts, also the placement of UI elements, latencies, learning quirky behaviors... being fast with software means not having to discover features. Similar to labeled controls on a physical device, just in a simulacrum.
- Xlr8head 1y ago
  This is maybe down to using the same cognitive pathways to navigate SW that we use to navigate the real world: way points en route to a destination. Whereas those with more understanding of the system can deploy other methods that are a more direct fit to that structure. The problem is, then, that if you change the terrain (e.g. new os) you also need to change the map/route in the heads of all those users without system knowledge. Even some of those with system knowledge might STILL preferentially deploy their innate navigation cognition.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  >That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. This "treat everything like a ludicrously complex black box that almost nobody can understand" for any given subject are the lowest common denominator that laws get written to.
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago

MarkSweep 1y ago

I’ve had a few family relations approach technology this way. I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. We have developed this intuition by either using or creating software for a long time. Like often people are scared to click random buttons or explore menus. We have used software for a long time, so we know that any destructive act would be proceeded by an “are you sure?” dialog box. I think I would be in their shoes if I ever tried to change the oil on my car. I may be able to follow a procedure. But I would not deviate from it. It would not try to pop the covers off unrelated parts to peek into the alternator, for fear of electric shock. Anyways, my rambling point is ideally we people would make themselves more familiar with how to understand the technology they work with everyday. But we should have empathy for people who have not contorted their minds to understand the peculiar behavior of software.

jact 1y ago
Yes, this is extremely accurate. Many people are very afraid to explore or experiment with any software program out of fear of breaking things.
- xwolfi 1y ago
  Because when they break things they lose hours of work they cannot afford to lose. My parents had a small business and if my mom mis-clicked somewhere and deleted some important thing, she would enter a panicked rage as she'd lose half the day with some remote tech support. She would never touch a computer after work, because it just stressed her, she found them absolutely unbearable, also because the tech support was unbearably obnoxious.
  - jact 1y ago
    This is true — which is why simple version control should be de rigueur in any important application where it’s feasible. The move to put everything in /the cloud is irritating but probably in part driven by this consumer complaint. Not that the boomers will ever learn.
KronisLV 1y ago
> I think it’s like they are missing a “theory of mind” for how software works. This is a delightful way to put it! I have older relatives that can't really tell apart where a website ends and where their operating system begins, due to not really knowing about the client server model (even when it's explained to them) and I worry about the generation that will also just grow up with phone apps. That's why I actually liked the classes back in school where we had all sorts of office program tasks to do, though I wish some of the later stuff from university would also be more widespread. Probably not programming for everyone (unless something practical with like Python), but just a few lessons on how the Internet works.

dotancohen 1y ago

> she was acting like I had pushed her onto debian or something. I've actually upgraded elderly people's computers from various Windows versions to various Ubuntu versions. I always tell them it's the newest Windows version, and very rarely have seen any problems. No joke, one of the biggest issues I saw was finding a solitaire program similar enough to the windows solitaire program.

CalRobert 1y ago
As someone who liked windows seven I find Ubuntu clearer than windows 11.
protocolture 1y ago
Not @ you in particular, but theres a rogue "computer guy" in my dads town who literally goes around "fixing" elderly peoples computers for a few hundred bucks, all he does is format them and install linux mint. My dad, who is a little bit technical from a long time ago, spends a lot of time helping distraught users reinstall windows (to get some application going that the brains trust of the middle of nowhere australia cant get going on linux) or just helping people recover photos etc from cloud backups. Guys like an old west linux bandit or something.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  For what it's worth I've never been paid for that service. And I go to great trouble in enumerating the applications that people use and the files that they access, including cloud files.

tacticus 1y ago

> Probably 1000 pages, of typed notes about how Windows XP works. Probably more than microsoft themselves maintained.

protocolture 1y ago
From what I remember it was like: To do X, click start <screenshot of start> and select documents <screenshot of documents> To do Y, click start <screenshot of start> and select calculator.... etc etc.
potato3732842 1y ago
I wonder if she found any UI bugs that they don't know about.

GoblinSlayer 1y ago

Changing the UI was the biggest mistake by microsoft, can't overestimate it.

chithanh 1y ago

That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. Like if they want to go to a certain office in a building: My "instructions" would be to go to department foo, room A5.303 (made up number). Their instructions are something like "in that red brick building, take the elevator to 5th floor, turn left and then again left into the hallway, second door on the right side". If they navigate UI the same way, then of course every element that is moved slightly to a new place or grouped differently will cause their mental model of how things work to collapse.

moritzwarhier 1y ago
It's also how IT professionals navigate software interfaces! I'm amused by the amount of flak you are getting here. Being fast and efficient with any piece of UI of course means to replace navigation and discovery with memory and intuition, at least in part! Not just keyboard shortcuts, also the placement of UI elements, latencies, learning quirky behaviors... being fast with software means not having to discover features. Similar to labeled controls on a physical device, just in a simulacrum.
Xlr8head 1y ago
This is maybe down to using the same cognitive pathways to navigate SW that we use to navigate the real world: way points en route to a destination. Whereas those with more understanding of the system can deploy other methods that are a more direct fit to that structure. The problem is, then, that if you change the terrain (e.g. new os) you also need to change the map/route in the heads of all those users without system knowledge. Even some of those with system knowledge might STILL preferentially deploy their innate navigation cognition.
potato3732842 1y ago
>That is seriously how some people navigate through life, not just computers. This "treat everything like a ludicrously complex black box that almost nobody can understand" for any given subject are the lowest common denominator that laws get written to.
StopDisinfo910 1y ago