5 ms·

I saw an electronic scooter in a shop here in Slovenia, but the name of the brand was unknown to me, and the price was quite high. (1500 EUR!) I searched the

I saw an electronic scooter in a shop here in Slovenia, but the name of the brand was unknown to me, and the price was quite high. (1500 EUR!) I searched the brand on the internet, but nothing turned up. Just Slovenian shops selling that same model at a similar price. [1] This seemed strange to me. So then I screenshot one of those pages and search via image. Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) [2] This is an absolutely ordinary situation. It was much the same when I was purchasing a bike for my kid -- 300 EUR here vs. 250 RMB there, for exactly the same bike. The purchasing power gap between USD|EUR and RMB is immense. (I try not to talk about it too much, because it's the sort of thing that really upsets politicians and local vendors, and they'll want to find a way to make it more painful. It's a secret "life-hack" but for real.) [1] - https://www.telekom.si/e-trgovina/sport-in-prosti-cas/skiroji/p/city-e-cruiser-elektricni-skiro-cobra-2000-crna https://www.telekom.si/e-trgovina/sport-in-prosti-cas/skiroj... [2] - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?abbucket=5&id=869342176534 https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?abbucket=5&id=869342176534

ruszki 1y ago
You know that even inside EU, you won’t get the same thing under the same name with the same parameters in different countries, right? For example, the car which you get in Eastern Europe will have worse components than what you get in Western Europe for the same exact model. This is also true for most of the stuffs which you can get in grocery stores in multiple countries. My guilty pleasure Milka whatever has better ingredients, and the packaging contains more in Western Europe than in Eastern Europe, but the name, and even physical size of the packaging are the same. There are news also about this in Eastern Europe all the time, that groceries, cleaning stuffs, etc are worse there for the same brand and product. But it’s true also with gasoline for example. On paper, you get the same thing in Hungary, and Austria, but at the end your car will go about 10-25% more with the Austrian one, and at the end it costs the same per km, just your car will die sooner from the worse eastern gas. Every public parameter is the same, the reality is completely different.
throwawaylaptop 1y ago
A friend of mine scoffed that I would buy a remote controlled 12v relay for $4 from temu. He said I was risking burning my truck to the ground to save $30. He sent me a link to the Amazon one he bought. So I sent him a link to the exact same one, on Temu, for $5.
- terribleperson 1y ago
  It's alarming that people still consider Amazon a good place to buy electronics.
- idiotsecant 1y ago
  Relays are one thing that you notoriously can't trust what it looks like. Yes, the one your friend bought on Amazon was probably also junk, but you should definitely buy components like this from a reputable vendor unless their application is absolutely trivial.
- kyrra 1y ago
  Rossmann has made all kinds of videos about this. Be careful out there. https://youtu.be/B90_SNNbcoU https://youtu.be/B90_SNNbcoU
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Err, 32 volts putting 64 watts into a dummy load just to get 2A to test a fuse? For a second I was wondering if I was watching electroboom.
- wraptile 1y ago
  It could be visually the same product but actually have different safety implementations
  - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
    It could. But why would it?
ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago
>Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) Did they change the Taobao listing? The price is lower still and the scooter is not at all similar.
- A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
  You have to click the buttons on the right to see your different options. Translating the page makes it a bit easier. The one in question is "style 17."
somenameforme 1y ago
Shoes are another one. I picked up some Crocs knock-offs for about $10 a few years ago, and they're probably the best sandals I've ever had - still going strong. I suspect it's not even a 'knock-off' but simply people who run the manufacturing lines continuing to run the manufacturing lines after the official order is filled and shipped back to the West to be sold at lol markups.
- ta20240528 1y ago
  Yip: the under-appreciated "4th-shift". Same materials, same machinery, same workers, same packaging. Different factory exit.
- blindriver 1y ago
  Low quality Chinese plastics are known to contain heavy metals like lead or cadmium. I would never trust a random Chinese manufacturer that isn’t vetted by a much larger organization that I can actually sue for negligence, etc.
  - redeeman 1y ago
    under what circumstances would you actually for real sue someone? this seems like a thing that is almost certainly NOT gonna happen, even if they did insane shit.
    - blindriver 1y ago
      You don't live in the US. People sue whenever they think they can make some money regardless of the merits.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    China themselves are doing a much better job on this front than some random lawsuit would. For instance the baby milk scandal from China [1] was globally publicized largely because it led to the death of 6 infants. China's prosecution of the company included complete dissolution of the company, 3 death penalties for the heads of the company, life imprisonment for middle men, and even prison terms for some wives who were not even involved in the business. Compare this against what happened to Bayer who knowingly sold HIV infected blood products, infecting tens of thousands with HIV and subsequently AIDS. [2] There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring! [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products#Continued_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood...
fy20 1y ago
This is the same for almost all electronics. If you buy a toaster, how much do you think it really costs to manufacture the €20 no name brand vs the €80 Delonghi branded one? In both cases, the price the customer pays is many multiples higher than the manufacturing cost. This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen. The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.
- esperent 1y ago
  I run a business in Vietnam, and it's often hard/prohibitively expensive to purchase recognizable brand name items so we end up purchasing lots of these unbranded/rebranded Chinese items. The quality varies wildly and there's no way to know ahead of time. I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods. Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already. On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
  - jjmarr 1y ago
    The real question is why Chinese companies aren't investing in brand development in Western countries.
    - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
wraptile 1y ago
So what's the moat here? I can start a business and sell the same scooter for 1000euros and undercut everyone. I wonder what is preventing competition here from solving this issue organically
- jbverschoor 1y ago
  That’s where tariffs and VAT, and some warranty legislation comes into play
- Incipient 1y ago
  I think it's a numbers game. Sell random popular product X at a huge margin, and you'll get some people that don't shop around that will buy it. Will you be the next bezos? No. Will you make a living with little effort and little smarts? Probably.
- numpad0 1y ago
  Totally speculating but, the moat must be Chinese speaking employees with enough engineering background at company office. Chinese factories look open to any reasonable businesses so long both are pragmatic and both talks the same language anyhow, but East Asian languages and cultures are related or connected to nothing else so just maintaining good mutual understanding can be hard(and I don't think LLMs help that much).
7bit 1y ago
Try returning the scooter once it breaks, if ordered from China. The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't. Both ends of an extreme. It's terrible.
rahimnathwani 1y ago
Your first link says is has a 60V 18Ah battery. I seriously doubt you can buy such a battery for 952 RMB. The Taobao link you shared leads me to a 'not found' page. One thing to watch out for on Taobao, even for legitimate sellers: a listing will often include a main item and several accessories, all as different variants of the same product. So a single listing might include variants for: - a scooter with battery - a spare battery - a charger - a wing mirror If you are looking at the price, be sure you have selected the variant that matches the thing you want.' Source: I lived in China for 9 years, and have placed hundreds of orders on Taobao (including replacement Li-ion batteries for two Vespa-style scooters).

ruszki 1y ago

You know that even inside EU, you won’t get the same thing under the same name with the same parameters in different countries, right? For example, the car which you get in Eastern Europe will have worse components than what you get in Western Europe for the same exact model. This is also true for most of the stuffs which you can get in grocery stores in multiple countries. My guilty pleasure Milka whatever has better ingredients, and the packaging contains more in Western Europe than in Eastern Europe, but the name, and even physical size of the packaging are the same. There are news also about this in Eastern Europe all the time, that groceries, cleaning stuffs, etc are worse there for the same brand and product. But it’s true also with gasoline for example. On paper, you get the same thing in Hungary, and Austria, but at the end your car will go about 10-25% more with the Austrian one, and at the end it costs the same per km, just your car will die sooner from the worse eastern gas. Every public parameter is the same, the reality is completely different.

throwawaylaptop 1y ago

A friend of mine scoffed that I would buy a remote controlled 12v relay for $4 from temu. He said I was risking burning my truck to the ground to save $30. He sent me a link to the Amazon one he bought. So I sent him a link to the exact same one, on Temu, for $5.

terribleperson 1y ago
It's alarming that people still consider Amazon a good place to buy electronics.
idiotsecant 1y ago
Relays are one thing that you notoriously can't trust what it looks like. Yes, the one your friend bought on Amazon was probably also junk, but you should definitely buy components like this from a reputable vendor unless their application is absolutely trivial.
kyrra 1y ago
Rossmann has made all kinds of videos about this. Be careful out there. https://youtu.be/B90_SNNbcoU https://youtu.be/B90_SNNbcoU
- mindslight 1y ago
  Err, 32 volts putting 64 watts into a dummy load just to get 2A to test a fuse? For a second I was wondering if I was watching electroboom.
wraptile 1y ago
It could be visually the same product but actually have different safety implementations
- throwawaylaptop 1y ago
  It could. But why would it?

ThePowerOfFuet 1y ago

>Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) Did they change the Taobao listing? The price is lower still and the scooter is not at all similar.

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
You have to click the buttons on the right to see your different options. Translating the page makes it a bit easier. The one in question is "style 17."

somenameforme 1y ago

Shoes are another one. I picked up some Crocs knock-offs for about $10 a few years ago, and they're probably the best sandals I've ever had - still going strong. I suspect it's not even a 'knock-off' but simply people who run the manufacturing lines continuing to run the manufacturing lines after the official order is filled and shipped back to the West to be sold at lol markups.

ta20240528 1y ago
Yip: the under-appreciated "4th-shift". Same materials, same machinery, same workers, same packaging. Different factory exit.
blindriver 1y ago
Low quality Chinese plastics are known to contain heavy metals like lead or cadmium. I would never trust a random Chinese manufacturer that isn’t vetted by a much larger organization that I can actually sue for negligence, etc.
- redeeman 1y ago
  under what circumstances would you actually for real sue someone? this seems like a thing that is almost certainly NOT gonna happen, even if they did insane shit.
  - blindriver 1y ago
    You don't live in the US. People sue whenever they think they can make some money regardless of the merits.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  China themselves are doing a much better job on this front than some random lawsuit would. For instance the baby milk scandal from China [1] was globally publicized largely because it led to the death of 6 infants. China's prosecution of the company included complete dissolution of the company, 3 death penalties for the heads of the company, life imprisonment for middle men, and even prison terms for some wives who were not even involved in the business. Compare this against what happened to Bayer who knowingly sold HIV infected blood products, infecting tens of thousands with HIV and subsequently AIDS. [2] There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring! [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products#Continued_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood...

fy20 1y ago

This is the same for almost all electronics. If you buy a toaster, how much do you think it really costs to manufacture the €20 no name brand vs the €80 Delonghi branded one? In both cases, the price the customer pays is many multiples higher than the manufacturing cost. This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen. The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.

esperent 1y ago
I run a business in Vietnam, and it's often hard/prohibitively expensive to purchase recognizable brand name items so we end up purchasing lots of these unbranded/rebranded Chinese items. The quality varies wildly and there's no way to know ahead of time. I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods. Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already. On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
- jjmarr 1y ago
  The real question is why Chinese companies aren't investing in brand development in Western countries.
  - SV_BubbleTime 1y ago

wraptile 1y ago

So what's the moat here? I can start a business and sell the same scooter for 1000euros and undercut everyone. I wonder what is preventing competition here from solving this issue organically

jbverschoor 1y ago
That’s where tariffs and VAT, and some warranty legislation comes into play
Incipient 1y ago
I think it's a numbers game. Sell random popular product X at a huge margin, and you'll get some people that don't shop around that will buy it. Will you be the next bezos? No. Will you make a living with little effort and little smarts? Probably.
numpad0 1y ago
Totally speculating but, the moat must be Chinese speaking employees with enough engineering background at company office. Chinese factories look open to any reasonable businesses so long both are pragmatic and both talks the same language anyhow, but East Asian languages and cultures are related or connected to nothing else so just maintaining good mutual understanding can be hard(and I don't think LLMs help that much).

7bit 1y ago

Try returning the scooter once it breaks, if ordered from China. The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't. Both ends of an extreme. It's terrible.

rahimnathwani 1y ago

Your first link says is has a 60V 18Ah battery. I seriously doubt you can buy such a battery for 952 RMB. The Taobao link you shared leads me to a 'not found' page. One thing to watch out for on Taobao, even for legitimate sellers: a listing will often include a main item and several accessories, all as different variants of the same product. So a single listing might include variants for: - a scooter with battery - a spare battery - a charger - a wing mirror If you are looking at the price, be sure you have selected the variant that matches the thing you want.' Source: I lived in China for 9 years, and have placed hundreds of orders on Taobao (including replacement Li-ion batteries for two Vespa-style scooters).