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> There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress. In the abstract, no, I don't believe there is a conflict between nationali
by apical_dendrite 1y ago
> There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress.
In the abstract, no, I don't believe there is a conflict between nationalism and science. However, nationalism and populism can lead to belief systems and policies that are absolutely in conflict with science. For instance, when nationalism means "our universities should only be for our people", that is directly in conflict with science. Most famously, Hitler purged Jews from German universities, after which David Hilbert said "there is no mathematics at Gottingen". The Trump administration is trying to prevent universities from recruiting foreign students and researchers, and even arresting researchers who advocate for ideas they disagree with. Fundamentally this is incompatible with science. Limiting who can do the research to a small percentage of the world's population, and intimidating and persecuting researchers who express unfavored opinions does not produce good science.
- Vektorceraptor 1y agoBut did this "brain drain" throw Germany back into the Stone Age? I'm not too familiar with the historical details, but I don't know of any reports suggesting that Germany was scientifically damaged in the post-war period.
- epistasis 1y agoThe US was decisive in defeating Nazi Germany, in no small part due to its science and mathematics. And if Nazi Germany had held on for longer, the atomic bomb would have defeated them too, with a large number of exiled scientists. Pre-war, much of the scientific literature was in German, especially chemistry. These days it's all in English.
- Vektorceraptor 1y agoAnd now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? Where do we even place the temporal benchmark for progress and why do we call it progress in the first place? Let’s be concrete: Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society?
- epistasis 1y ago> And now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? No, absolutely not. > Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? That has been one of the major driving forces of science throughout the 20th century, whether by hot or Cold War. > And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society? It has never need the case, and this statement is a complete straw man. This is a very strange comment, completely disconnected from any reality that I can recognize.
- Vektorceraptor 1y ago[flagged]
- apical_dendrite 1y agoYou yourself said that you don't know basic 20th century history, and you're calling other people ignorant? Unbelievable.
- Vektorceraptor 1y agoBecause unlike many others, I don't pretend to be all-knowing and all-good. Overconfidence, assertive dominance, and shared convictions often stem from, or lead to, ignorance. But if you don't believe me, than check out this powerful quote by Bertrand Russell: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throughout-past-history-have-always-thought-more-of-their https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throug...
- wredcoll 1y agoWhy do we need to start at the post-war period? Germany under the Nazis was obviously bad at science. This is a pretty obvious consequence of being rewarded for parroting the party line and adherence to dogma over actual investigations.
- Vektorceraptor 1y agoBecause National Socialism has become an irrefutable foundation — and I don't want to discuss that. I actually see it as a step backward that the next generations are now necessarily forced to live and think under its shadow, when they could in fact be thinking free.