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There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress. Every time I read this kind of leftist propaganda, I lose hope for the world.

There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress. Every time I read this kind of leftist propaganda, I lose hope for the world. The very people who present themselves as intelligent and morally superior fail to recognize the most basic contradictions within themselves: they claim that autocrats and populists sow fear and nostalgia, while they themselves are driven by fear of autocrats and long for utopia, while polarizing and dividing society for neglecting real problems and worries, due to idealization and generalization. It’s simply absurd, and I urge every leftist to stop this. I myself left university because of the moralistic and toxic irrationality and ideology I encountered. Isn't it strange that empirical sciences are not in dispute? It is always the same "circle" - the social justice circle. Social justice is not a scientific category. Just as the paradoxes of quantum mechanics have no direct consequences for politics, we should not treat the humanities as if they do either. Life is not a question or problem to be solved at the university...

apical_dendrite 1y ago
> There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress. In the abstract, no, I don't believe there is a conflict between nationalism and science. However, nationalism and populism can lead to belief systems and policies that are absolutely in conflict with science. For instance, when nationalism means "our universities should only be for our people", that is directly in conflict with science. Most famously, Hitler purged Jews from German universities, after which David Hilbert said "there is no mathematics at Gottingen". The Trump administration is trying to prevent universities from recruiting foreign students and researchers, and even arresting researchers who advocate for ideas they disagree with. Fundamentally this is incompatible with science. Limiting who can do the research to a small percentage of the world's population, and intimidating and persecuting researchers who express unfavored opinions does not produce good science.
- Vektorceraptor 1y ago
  But did this "brain drain" throw Germany back into the Stone Age? I'm not too familiar with the historical details, but I don't know of any reports suggesting that Germany was scientifically damaged in the post-war period.
  - epistasis 1y ago
    The US was decisive in defeating Nazi Germany, in no small part due to its science and mathematics. And if Nazi Germany had held on for longer, the atomic bomb would have defeated them too, with a large number of exiled scientists. Pre-war, much of the scientific literature was in German, especially chemistry. These days it's all in English.
    - Vektorceraptor 1y ago
      And now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? Where do we even place the temporal benchmark for progress and why do we call it progress in the first place? Let’s be concrete: Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society?
      - epistasis 1y ago
        > And now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? No, absolutely not. > Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? That has been one of the major driving forces of science throughout the 20th century, whether by hot or Cold War. > And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society? It has never need the case, and this statement is a complete straw man. This is a very strange comment, completely disconnected from any reality that I can recognize.
        Vektorceraptor 1y ago
        [flagged]
        apical_dendrite 1y ago
        You yourself said that you don't know basic 20th century history, and you're calling other people ignorant? Unbelievable.
jaybrendansmith 1y ago
Look, in theory you're fine. In practice, the nationalists are dismantling the scientific research required to study climate change (which is happening, because, you know, carbon heating the atmosphere is basic physics). They are claiming that tax cuts and austerity improve the economy, which is not only counter to economics but has been proven wrong over 50 years. And don't get me started on pollution, healthcare, and sexuality. All of these may be studied but are being actively defunded, because they are perceived as leftist for some reason. Without getting moralistic, I can tell you that my children's future is getting worse every day because of this science denialism. As Yogi Berra once said "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
- Vektorceraptor 1y ago
  And the problem with this whole discussion is that I'm not necessarily trying to defend conservatives, but rather to confront progressives with a reality that might, hopefully, prompt some self-reflection. But any criticism of progressives is immediately projected onto conservatives, making genuine self-awareness impossible. And as long as progressives show no forbearance toward conservatives, conservatives will make them pay for it politically. I can't understand why this is ignored, especially in academia. It's completely beyond me how the free West has turned into this ideological hell — in just 30 years. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throughout-past-history-have-always-thought-more-of-their https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throug...
  - jaybrendansmith 1y ago
    I appreciate the perspective, but it's hard to both sides this one. Progressives come from a place where good faith arguments are expected (and - no question - foolish). The current MAGA right comes from a place where they would siphon the gas from your car and use it to burn down your house.
    - lostmsu 1y ago
      Remarkably, you did what gp complained about immediately after "I appreciate the perspective".
Vektorceraptor 1y ago
[flagged]

apical_dendrite 1y ago

> There is no contradiction between patriotism, nationalism and science or progress. In the abstract, no, I don't believe there is a conflict between nationalism and science. However, nationalism and populism can lead to belief systems and policies that are absolutely in conflict with science. For instance, when nationalism means "our universities should only be for our people", that is directly in conflict with science. Most famously, Hitler purged Jews from German universities, after which David Hilbert said "there is no mathematics at Gottingen". The Trump administration is trying to prevent universities from recruiting foreign students and researchers, and even arresting researchers who advocate for ideas they disagree with. Fundamentally this is incompatible with science. Limiting who can do the research to a small percentage of the world's population, and intimidating and persecuting researchers who express unfavored opinions does not produce good science.

Vektorceraptor 1y ago
But did this "brain drain" throw Germany back into the Stone Age? I'm not too familiar with the historical details, but I don't know of any reports suggesting that Germany was scientifically damaged in the post-war period.
- epistasis 1y ago
  The US was decisive in defeating Nazi Germany, in no small part due to its science and mathematics. And if Nazi Germany had held on for longer, the atomic bomb would have defeated them too, with a large number of exiled scientists. Pre-war, much of the scientific literature was in German, especially chemistry. These days it's all in English.
  - Vektorceraptor 1y ago
    And now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? Where do we even place the temporal benchmark for progress and why do we call it progress in the first place? Let’s be concrete: Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society?
    - epistasis 1y ago
      > And now it’s falling apart from within due to ideas from the humanities? No, absolutely not. > Since when has science been driven by the fear of being left behind? That has been one of the major driving forces of science throughout the 20th century, whether by hot or Cold War. > And since when has knowledge become the only thing that holds value in a society? It has never need the case, and this statement is a complete straw man. This is a very strange comment, completely disconnected from any reality that I can recognize.
      - Vektorceraptor 1y ago
        [flagged]
        apical_dendrite 1y ago
        You yourself said that you don't know basic 20th century history, and you're calling other people ignorant? Unbelievable.

jaybrendansmith 1y ago

Look, in theory you're fine. In practice, the nationalists are dismantling the scientific research required to study climate change (which is happening, because, you know, carbon heating the atmosphere is basic physics). They are claiming that tax cuts and austerity improve the economy, which is not only counter to economics but has been proven wrong over 50 years. And don't get me started on pollution, healthcare, and sexuality. All of these may be studied but are being actively defunded, because they are perceived as leftist for some reason. Without getting moralistic, I can tell you that my children's future is getting worse every day because of this science denialism. As Yogi Berra once said "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

Vektorceraptor 1y ago
And the problem with this whole discussion is that I'm not necessarily trying to defend conservatives, but rather to confront progressives with a reality that might, hopefully, prompt some self-reflection. But any criticism of progressives is immediately projected onto conservatives, making genuine self-awareness impossible. And as long as progressives show no forbearance toward conservatives, conservatives will make them pay for it politically. I can't understand why this is ignored, especially in academia. It's completely beyond me how the free West has turned into this ideological hell — in just 30 years. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throughout-past-history-have-always-thought-more-of-their https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11098838-oligarchies-throug...
- jaybrendansmith 1y ago
  I appreciate the perspective, but it's hard to both sides this one. Progressives come from a place where good faith arguments are expected (and - no question - foolish). The current MAGA right comes from a place where they would siphon the gas from your car and use it to burn down your house.
  - lostmsu 1y ago
    Remarkably, you did what gp complained about immediately after "I appreciate the perspective".

Vektorceraptor 1y ago

[flagged]