6 ms·

Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

dude250711 1y ago
[flagged]
- weakfish 1y ago
  This is just flame bait that doesn’t add to the conversation
PaulHoule 1y ago
If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?
- betaby 1y ago
  https://www.aol.com/gen-z-gender-pay-gap-050000387.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9vbGQucmVkZGl0LmNvbS9yL0Vjb25vbWljcy9jb21tZW50cy8xbDRyZ3llL3RoZV9nZW5fel9nZW5kZXJfcGF5X2dhcF9oYXNfcmV2ZXJzZWRfd2l0aF95b3VuZy8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKKEulQQ3GRxSaYCvCG9qjgWZYl48QqleQmcCokeMntN9thH8BzqHYKFXoAte8zw7z3Itd1P_03BQ_6DYRyLT6OO7yOrmNjQqTDq9CWwI9vxc-qq6FfneWh1W9uSMu11KNMhSOCiOVD4y-GbKh9qaXhDWop2c062ztJlVlNC1UWn https://www.aol.com/gen-z-gender-pay-gap-050000387.html?gucc...
  - yieldcrv 1y ago
    We all noticed it was just impoverished and uneducated young women blaming their incompetency on the wage gap and patriarchal influences, while really all other women in their age range had closed it to the extent that they are even making up for the women that drag the wages down Its pretty impressive overall, but extremely funny watching some women be left behind and not even know it
    - williamdclt 1y ago
      "We all noticed" except the people gathering actual data of course. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... shows disparities in skilled trades: in fact _more_ disparity in skilled trades. For example 15% gap for developers. But I'm glad you "noticed" something different, problem solved then. > extremely funny Regardless of the reality of the gender pay gap, this is a disgusting attitude.
      - yieldcrv 1y ago
        I responded to an article about the 18-24 age range, your source is not segmented that way. let me know when you have counterpoints to that The amusement comes from what the uneducated women wind up doing and how they rationalize it. Mansplaining is out, laughter is in.
- mdorazio 1y ago
  In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual career track and control for hours worked/overtime, years of experience, etc. it’s generally quite even. In fact, there’s a recent trend of young women making more than their male counterparts, as per the link in this thread.
  - yieldcrv 1y ago
    Additionally, many women are not mimicking their competition in how the career ladder is approached. There is a fear of coming across as too assertive within the organization she is already employed in. What’s understated is that plenty of men come across as too cocky too and get passed up within the organization and at other organizations. But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude. I dont have a way to quantify this behavior by gender, I frequently see women not considering it though, overindexed on getting the promotion in the org and navigating that. The competition doesn’t care about their perception at the place they are already employed, and are aiming on getting offers all the time for leverage.
    - supriyo-biswas 1y ago
      > But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude. At a previous employer, I had skip levels who apparently only made disparaging statements in public settings (and only in public settings, they’d dismiss it lightly if you tried to discuss said feedback in private settings) involving their indirect reports; this was their apparent way of ruling with an iron fist so that they come across as effective managers and have more projects directed towards them by the leadership. Even as a man, it was everything I never wanted to become; I can completely see why women, who generally pursue (or at least try to maintain the impression of) collaborative relationships often want to do nothing with it.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  Yes, which is why that theory is very unlikely to be true. Even if employers were such committed sexists that they only employed men to their detriment, they would eventually get outcompeted by less sexist competitors who hired a cheaper (yet just as effective) workforce.
- delusional 1y ago
  I like contextualizing that question using a tool Matt Levine wrote about to understand the problem of doing fundamental analysis for a short sale. Winning a short position requires two things. The obvious one is that it requires something to be overvalued. If we posit that women are paid less, which is what your argument does, we have covered the first condition. The second thing required is a way for the market to become aware of this discrepancy. That would be the missing piece. Companies/Managers/Founders are the ones valuing the work. If they value the work less when a woman does it, then something has to change that valuation. It won't correct by itself.
- meroes 1y ago
  Young women are also getting paid more than young men
- antithesizer 1y ago
  Apparently they have been
- jabjq 1y ago
  Have you ever worked in a place full of women?
khelavastr 1y ago
[flagged]
- yieldcrv 1y ago
  > Increasingawlesaness Come again?
  - chowells 1y ago
    Eh, that's an easy typo to make on a phone when you're used to autocorrect getting things right. Sometimes you miss when it doesn't. That's not the incoherent part of GP, which is the part where they somehow seem to believe women are favored (?!) by current power structures and that favor will increase as those structures turn towards might-makes-right policies.
    - yieldcrv 1y ago
      I just want to know what they meant, I know it’s a typo, I can’t infer it
  - dijit 1y ago
    Likely it was "Increasing Awareness"; "Increasing awareness favors women, and men don't have the legal support to see justice." They're probably commenting on the idea that there is a stronger push to get women into companies for quota requirements, where the same is not true for men, and any injustice in hiring for women is likely rectified whereas it is not likely to be met charitably for men. I'm not sure what I personally believe here.
samfriedman 1y ago
Kind of useless if not normalized by proportion of genders in each industry, no?
- typs 1y ago
  Yes, though the article is about this. Forgivable given the paywall though. TLDR is women are more employed because healthcare continues to see growth in jobs and employment women; also, the software engineering job apocalypse is probably structural not AI, and already bouncing back.
rconti 1y ago
It's interesting to point out that this has erased the men's "college employability premium"; however, it's still not apples to apples as we're not comparing the same jobs or paychecks.
Animats 1y ago
Yet there's a major shortage of Real Men for skilled engineering jobs.[1] The kind of jobs that require a hard hat. Not enough people are going to college and then taking jobs like that. Read through the titles on Edward Conard's page. Too many college grads, too few going into tough industries, and too many young people collecting disability. [1] https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/aging-populations-and-anti-immigration-rhetoric-in-rich-countries-are-forcing-companies-building-electricity-infrastructure-to-find-creative-solutions-to-meet-surging-demand-the-us-is-unable-to-fill/?view=detail&filters=macro-roundup-database https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/aging-populations...
- rr808 1y ago
  These "skilled engineering jobs" pay a fraction of what software engineers make - let alone the conditions. Little wonder no one wants to do them.
- stagger87 1y ago
  > "young people collecting disability." Can you elaborate?
  - Animats 1y ago
    Some articles. [1][2] For a while, this seemed to be associated with COVID, but it's continuing. [1] https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/just-5-of-young-men-25-40-in-the-us-were-not-in-the-labor-force-in-1976-that-number-rose-to-11-in-2024-more-than-1-in-4-men-in-this-cohort-are-not-working-full-time-and-40-of-them-receive https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/just-5-of-young-m... [2] https://opa.hhs.gov/adolescent-health/physical-health-developing-adolescents/introduction-chronic-conditions/trends-disabilities-youth https://opa.hhs.gov/adolescent-health/physical-health-develo...
- roenxi 1y ago
  There appears to be a certain level of background propaganda where people keep saying that such-and-such occupation is facing a shortage of workers, but the actual evidence of that in the real world - sharply jumping salaries - rarely seems to eventuate. In a lot of cases wage rises don't even match the amount of money printing going on. And things like being "unable to fill" a role are a red herring. They are probably fishing where they have a role in case someone with very high skills very much already in the field comes along at a moderate price. In a real shortage people pay above market rate to attract canny candidates, then hire a capable individual who is slightly under-qualified and train them up.
rvz 1y ago
This is what it means to "Feel the AGI."
tennisflyi 1y ago
I’m telling y’all, ATSs are the problem

[flagged]

weakfish 1y ago
This is just flame bait that doesn’t add to the conversation

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

betaby 1y ago
https://www.aol.com/gen-z-gender-pay-gap-050000387.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9vbGQucmVkZGl0LmNvbS9yL0Vjb25vbWljcy9jb21tZW50cy8xbDRyZ3llL3RoZV9nZW5fel9nZW5kZXJfcGF5X2dhcF9oYXNfcmV2ZXJzZWRfd2l0aF95b3VuZy8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKKEulQQ3GRxSaYCvCG9qjgWZYl48QqleQmcCokeMntN9thH8BzqHYKFXoAte8zw7z3Itd1P_03BQ_6DYRyLT6OO7yOrmNjQqTDq9CWwI9vxc-qq6FfneWh1W9uSMu11KNMhSOCiOVD4y-GbKh9qaXhDWop2c062ztJlVlNC1UWn https://www.aol.com/gen-z-gender-pay-gap-050000387.html?gucc...
- yieldcrv 1y ago
  We all noticed it was just impoverished and uneducated young women blaming their incompetency on the wage gap and patriarchal influences, while really all other women in their age range had closed it to the extent that they are even making up for the women that drag the wages down Its pretty impressive overall, but extremely funny watching some women be left behind and not even know it
  - williamdclt 1y ago
    "We all noticed" except the people gathering actual data of course. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... shows disparities in skilled trades: in fact _more_ disparity in skilled trades. For example 15% gap for developers. But I'm glad you "noticed" something different, problem solved then. > extremely funny Regardless of the reality of the gender pay gap, this is a disgusting attitude.
    - yieldcrv 1y ago
      I responded to an article about the 18-24 age range, your source is not segmented that way. let me know when you have counterpoints to that The amusement comes from what the uneducated women wind up doing and how they rationalize it. Mansplaining is out, laughter is in.
mdorazio 1y ago
In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual career track and control for hours worked/overtime, years of experience, etc. it’s generally quite even. In fact, there’s a recent trend of young women making more than their male counterparts, as per the link in this thread.
- yieldcrv 1y ago
  Additionally, many women are not mimicking their competition in how the career ladder is approached. There is a fear of coming across as too assertive within the organization she is already employed in. What’s understated is that plenty of men come across as too cocky too and get passed up within the organization and at other organizations. But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude. I dont have a way to quantify this behavior by gender, I frequently see women not considering it though, overindexed on getting the promotion in the org and navigating that. The competition doesn’t care about their perception at the place they are already employed, and are aiming on getting offers all the time for leverage.
  - supriyo-biswas 1y ago
    > But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude. At a previous employer, I had skip levels who apparently only made disparaging statements in public settings (and only in public settings, they’d dismiss it lightly if you tried to discuss said feedback in private settings) involving their indirect reports; this was their apparent way of ruling with an iron fist so that they come across as effective managers and have more projects directed towards them by the leadership. Even as a man, it was everything I never wanted to become; I can completely see why women, who generally pursue (or at least try to maintain the impression of) collaborative relationships often want to do nothing with it.
bigstrat2003 1y ago
Yes, which is why that theory is very unlikely to be true. Even if employers were such committed sexists that they only employed men to their detriment, they would eventually get outcompeted by less sexist competitors who hired a cheaper (yet just as effective) workforce.
delusional 1y ago
I like contextualizing that question using a tool Matt Levine wrote about to understand the problem of doing fundamental analysis for a short sale. Winning a short position requires two things. The obvious one is that it requires something to be overvalued. If we posit that women are paid less, which is what your argument does, we have covered the first condition. The second thing required is a way for the market to become aware of this discrepancy. That would be the missing piece. Companies/Managers/Founders are the ones valuing the work. If they value the work less when a woman does it, then something has to change that valuation. It won't correct by itself.
meroes 1y ago
Young women are also getting paid more than young men
antithesizer 1y ago
Apparently they have been
jabjq 1y ago
Have you ever worked in a place full of women?

khelavastr 1y ago

[flagged]

yieldcrv 1y ago
> Increasingawlesaness Come again?
- chowells 1y ago
  Eh, that's an easy typo to make on a phone when you're used to autocorrect getting things right. Sometimes you miss when it doesn't. That's not the incoherent part of GP, which is the part where they somehow seem to believe women are favored (?!) by current power structures and that favor will increase as those structures turn towards might-makes-right policies.
  - yieldcrv 1y ago
    I just want to know what they meant, I know it’s a typo, I can’t infer it
- dijit 1y ago
  Likely it was "Increasing Awareness"; "Increasing awareness favors women, and men don't have the legal support to see justice." They're probably commenting on the idea that there is a stronger push to get women into companies for quota requirements, where the same is not true for men, and any injustice in hiring for women is likely rectified whereas it is not likely to be met charitably for men. I'm not sure what I personally believe here.

samfriedman 1y ago

Kind of useless if not normalized by proportion of genders in each industry, no?

typs 1y ago
Yes, though the article is about this. Forgivable given the paywall though. TLDR is women are more employed because healthcare continues to see growth in jobs and employment women; also, the software engineering job apocalypse is probably structural not AI, and already bouncing back.

rconti 1y ago

It's interesting to point out that this has erased the men's "college employability premium"; however, it's still not apples to apples as we're not comparing the same jobs or paychecks.

Animats 1y ago

Yet there's a major shortage of Real Men for skilled engineering jobs.[1] The kind of jobs that require a hard hat. Not enough people are going to college and then taking jobs like that. Read through the titles on Edward Conard's page. Too many college grads, too few going into tough industries, and too many young people collecting disability. [1] https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/aging-populations-and-anti-immigration-rhetoric-in-rich-countries-are-forcing-companies-building-electricity-infrastructure-to-find-creative-solutions-to-meet-surging-demand-the-us-is-unable-to-fill/?view=detail&filters=macro-roundup-database https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/aging-populations...

rr808 1y ago
These "skilled engineering jobs" pay a fraction of what software engineers make - let alone the conditions. Little wonder no one wants to do them.
stagger87 1y ago
> "young people collecting disability." Can you elaborate?
- Animats 1y ago
  Some articles. [1][2] For a while, this seemed to be associated with COVID, but it's continuing. [1] https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/just-5-of-young-men-25-40-in-the-us-were-not-in-the-labor-force-in-1976-that-number-rose-to-11-in-2024-more-than-1-in-4-men-in-this-cohort-are-not-working-full-time-and-40-of-them-receive https://www.edwardconard.com/macro-roundup/just-5-of-young-m... [2] https://opa.hhs.gov/adolescent-health/physical-health-developing-adolescents/introduction-chronic-conditions/trends-disabilities-youth https://opa.hhs.gov/adolescent-health/physical-health-develo...
roenxi 1y ago
There appears to be a certain level of background propaganda where people keep saying that such-and-such occupation is facing a shortage of workers, but the actual evidence of that in the real world - sharply jumping salaries - rarely seems to eventuate. In a lot of cases wage rises don't even match the amount of money printing going on. And things like being "unable to fill" a role are a red herring. They are probably fishing where they have a role in case someone with very high skills very much already in the field comes along at a moderate price. In a real shortage people pay above market rate to attract canny candidates, then hire a capable individual who is slightly under-qualified and train them up.

rvz 1y ago

This is what it means to "Feel the AGI."

tennisflyi 1y ago

I’m telling y’all, ATSs are the problem