5 ms·

"this is ok because..." you might want to think a bit longer on the inefficiencies here.

triceratops 1y ago
Do tell... I see half-empty city buses running all the time and no one says boo about "inefficiencies" then. And even then city buses outside of dense metros run no more frequently than every 15 minutes, but only during rush hour, and only on popular routes. That's no way to get everyone loving public transport. I want to take public transport. I don't want to spend hours waiting for the bus. I don't want to wait 20 years for a subway to be built either. What do I do? The only answer is more frequent, smaller buses. But drivers are expensive. So then self-driving buses. And if the buses drive themselves, you really want to them to be completely full, all the time. What kind of "bus" is always completely full? A single-seater golf cart.
- queenkjuul 1y ago
  The answer is just more frequent buses.
- __alexs 1y ago
  Even a half empty bus is considerably more efficient than most forms of personal transportation.
  - triceratops 1y ago
    Is a half-empty bus more efficient than a 4-seater sedan carrying 3 people? Or an electric scooter? An electric trike? A golf cart?
    - fwip 1y ago
      Yes, probably but I haven't done the math, yes, and yes.
      - rsynnott 1y ago
        _In principle_, the electric scooter is probably more efficient per unit volume, but only if arranged in a biker gang style convoy.
    - mattdeboard 1y ago
      Yes
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      The buses used here (double decker) take 80-100 people depending on model and are 12-14 meters long (about three smallish cars nose to tail. Half full they are massively more space efficient than cars. Even mostly empty, really. The story is a _bit_ worse for single decker buses, but honestly not much.
      - __alexs 1y ago
        The problem with double decker busses is you lose a lot of the capacity benefit by increasing the loading/unloading times. If you eliminated the whole ticketing process and optimised the loading times they would probably be a LOT better.
        dahauns 1y ago
        Hm...dunno how generalizable the results are, but at least here in Vienna - where we _have_ practially eliminated the (on-vehicle) ticketing process - double deckers were ultimately deemed not worth it: With a high enough frequency for the capacity benefits of double deckers to have merit, the increase in load/unload times became a bigger limiting factor (at least for the models available back then). The city uses articulated buses instead.
        rsynnott 1y ago
        Roughly every ten years, Dublin Bus tries a few articulated buses, which then get stuck on roundabouts, reminding Dublin Bus why it abandoned them last time. Eventually this is forgotten, and they try again. Really the great advantage of double deckers is precisely that they work where articulated buses don’t; otherwise they’re far too much trouble and you’d never use them.
        dahauns 1y ago
        Yeah, it's definitely not a straightforward "just do it" with articulated buses - they have done careful modifications here along the planned routes (e.g. redesigned corners/crossings to avoid too tight radii, removed parking spots to allow for longer bus stops in narrow streets etc). Vienna's not that roundabout-heavy though, I can see where those (at least small, tight ones) would be the end boss for an articulated bus. :)
- Grimblewald 1y ago
  The problem here, the great limiting factor, is volume. We have finite volume to occupy things with and these carts would be way less efficient than a bus. Bus drivers may be "expensive" but are entierly affordable in a public transport system. Hard to profit from though so america is fucked on that front. You're unlikely to see it without cultural revolution. Doesnt make proposed solution any less bad, or prone to simply perpetuating the ecact same issue plaguing the system now. as for fsd busses, much more feasible with public infrastructure as you can give the bus eyes via cameras mounted at any difficult points in the city, things hard to make privately accessible due to abuse but fairly reasonable for a well made and maintained publically managed privacy focused system.

Do tell... I see half-empty city buses running all the time and no one says boo about "inefficiencies" then. And even then city buses outside of dense metros run no more frequently than every 15 minutes, but only during rush hour, and only on popular routes. That's no way to get everyone loving public transport. I want to take public transport. I don't want to spend hours waiting for the bus. I don't want to wait 20 years for a subway to be built either. What do I do? The only answer is more frequent, smaller buses. But drivers are expensive. So then self-driving buses. And if the buses drive themselves, you really want to them to be completely full, all the time. What kind of "bus" is always completely full? A single-seater golf cart.

queenkjuul 1y ago
The answer is just more frequent buses.
__alexs 1y ago
Even a half empty bus is considerably more efficient than most forms of personal transportation.
- triceratops 1y ago
  Is a half-empty bus more efficient than a 4-seater sedan carrying 3 people? Or an electric scooter? An electric trike? A golf cart?
  - fwip 1y ago
    Yes, probably but I haven't done the math, yes, and yes.
    - rsynnott 1y ago
      _In principle_, the electric scooter is probably more efficient per unit volume, but only if arranged in a biker gang style convoy.
  - mattdeboard 1y ago
    Yes
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    The buses used here (double decker) take 80-100 people depending on model and are 12-14 meters long (about three smallish cars nose to tail. Half full they are massively more space efficient than cars. Even mostly empty, really. The story is a _bit_ worse for single decker buses, but honestly not much.
    - __alexs 1y ago
      The problem with double decker busses is you lose a lot of the capacity benefit by increasing the loading/unloading times. If you eliminated the whole ticketing process and optimised the loading times they would probably be a LOT better.
      - dahauns 1y ago
        Hm...dunno how generalizable the results are, but at least here in Vienna - where we _have_ practially eliminated the (on-vehicle) ticketing process - double deckers were ultimately deemed not worth it: With a high enough frequency for the capacity benefits of double deckers to have merit, the increase in load/unload times became a bigger limiting factor (at least for the models available back then). The city uses articulated buses instead.
        rsynnott 1y ago
        Roughly every ten years, Dublin Bus tries a few articulated buses, which then get stuck on roundabouts, reminding Dublin Bus why it abandoned them last time. Eventually this is forgotten, and they try again. Really the great advantage of double deckers is precisely that they work where articulated buses don’t; otherwise they’re far too much trouble and you’d never use them.
        dahauns 1y ago
        Yeah, it's definitely not a straightforward "just do it" with articulated buses - they have done careful modifications here along the planned routes (e.g. redesigned corners/crossings to avoid too tight radii, removed parking spots to allow for longer bus stops in narrow streets etc). Vienna's not that roundabout-heavy though, I can see where those (at least small, tight ones) would be the end boss for an articulated bus. :)
Grimblewald 1y ago
The problem here, the great limiting factor, is volume. We have finite volume to occupy things with and these carts would be way less efficient than a bus. Bus drivers may be "expensive" but are entierly affordable in a public transport system. Hard to profit from though so america is fucked on that front. You're unlikely to see it without cultural revolution. Doesnt make proposed solution any less bad, or prone to simply perpetuating the ecact same issue plaguing the system now. as for fsd busses, much more feasible with public infrastructure as you can give the bus eyes via cameras mounted at any difficult points in the city, things hard to make privately accessible due to abuse but fairly reasonable for a well made and maintained publically managed privacy focused system.