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Is this really a problem with Beyond Meat or a problem with our policies not correctly pricing meat due to not caring about the environment or animal welfare?

carlosjobim 1y ago
It's the same policy whether it's real meat patties or beyond meat, because beyond beef has the same main ingredient as the feed for the cattle: soybeans.
- jplrssn 1y ago
  How much soy does it take to raise 1kg of beef compared with producing 1kg of beyond meat?
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    Why does that matter? US ag subsidies are for crops. They effect cow prices the same as they effect beyond prices. Beyond is more expensive because it doesnt have enough competition.
- zahlman 1y ago
  Beyond Beef derives its protein from peas, and explicitly advertises "no soy".
  - carlosjobim 1y ago
    You're right. I was looking at the ingredient list of artificial meat and it was mainly soybeans, but I was probably looking at the wrong brand or outdated information.
spwa4 1y ago
A lot of people would say it is a problem with making the entire population pay for the moral preferences of a few.
- globular-toast 1y ago
  True. People would have said the same in defence of colonialism, slavery, genocide etc. Generations later it's easy to look back and say "of course that stuff was bad, I would have fought against it too".
  - kikokikokiko 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - rimbo789 1y ago
      That’s a funny way to say genocide
      - kikokikokiko 1y ago
        Like the one the aztecs regularly unleashed upon their neighbors? Or any pre-colonial tribe in the Americas or Africa (in this case up until this day really). What did the Romans brought us really?
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        ben_w 1y ago
        > What did the Romans brought us really? War, pestilence, famine, and death. An excuse like "everyone else was doing it!" only goes as far as making my ancestors "not spectacularly evil", it definitely does not make them "good". The railways are in the plus column, but would you accept your country being taken over by several different groups of aliens who draw random-seeming lines on the maps that even split up your existing cities between them, each forcing their own language and religious customs on their bit of your land, being really brutal in their suppression of any resistance campaigns, in exchange for a network of teleporter booths?
        1y ago
bluescrn 1y ago
[flagged]
- ainiriand 1y ago
  Have you never enjoyed a burger and a beer with your friends? Or is that you fail to see the social component of eating?
  - bluescrn 1y ago
    Doesn't seem relevant. There's a decent amount of veggie/vegan options these days without using fake meat. Fake meat isn't really a product for vegetarians/vegans. It's is a product aimed at creating vegetarians/vegans, and that's going to be much harder.
    - pcthrowaway 1y ago
      I always feel like people are being intentionally obtuse when making these arguments. I'm vegan and know many vegans who enjoy beyond meat. We didn't go vegan because we didn't like the taste of things which were traditionally derived from animal flesh, and it's nice to be able to enjoy effectively the same foods without the animal exploitation.
    - henryaj 1y ago
      > Fake meat isn't really a product for vegetarians/vegans This is just flat-out wrong.
    - ainiriand 1y ago
      That is probably coming from someone that eats meat.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  Food is not just food: it's culture. These replacements have value because sometimes you want the thing that gives you that nostalgia kick or whatever specific feeling you associate with food. Old school plant based replacements don't always feel right for this.
wonderwonder 1y ago
The market decides the price. We don’t need politicians and biased scientists moralizing about what we can and can’t do and what we should care about.
- OtherShrezzing 1y ago
  That’s not really how the world works. Most governments already massively subsidises their agricultural sectors to create some desired eating habits in their population. The market just adjusts prices around those subsidies. If all subsidies were removed - in order to avoid the influence of moralising politicians - people would eat a lot more potatoes, and a lot less beef.
  - stinkbeetle 1y ago
    > That’s not really how the world works. Most governments already massively subsidises their agricultural sectors to create some desired eating habits in their population. The market just adjusts prices around those subsidies. By global average, under 15% of farm revenue is derived from government subsidies. USA is below that, at about 10%. Not sure if I'd call that massive, but that's semantics so it's a little hard to argue against. Does potato agriculture get massive subsidies? > If all subsidies were removed - in order to avoid the influence of moralising politicians - people would eat a lot more potatoes, and a lot less beef. The assumptions being that 1. potato farming get relatively much less subsidies as beef (and other meat) farming; 2. cost is such a factor in consumption that price change would cause "a lot" of difference. I don't think either are very safe, and as a general statement it doesn't follow that just reducing agricultural subsidies increases ratio of beef to potato (or meat to vegetable): EU subsidies are much higher than US, but USA eats far more beef per capita.
    - jkestner 1y ago
      https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-data-says/ https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-da... Subsidies go mostly to corn and soybeans. Think those are multipurpose but corn is used to feed livestock, of course. 10 or 15% may be a lot in a low-margin industry, and I don't know how it's split among crops. No all subsidies are direct. For example, water costs too little in Arizona so foreign companies grow feed stock there to ship home.
greatgib 1y ago
All in all, despite the fact that it is not real meat, nothing proves that Beyond Meat production is better for the planet. If you factor production materials, energy,... Not sure what it gives. From what I understood why BM production was limited and expensive is that nothing beats nature. Cow meat manufacturing process was refined by nature for ten of thousands of years to be the most optimized possible.
- hombre_fatal 1y ago
  https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Every food is less destructive than beef by a ridiculous margin. And eating any food directly is less destructive than losing most of the calories to grow animal biomass. Beyond Meat is just mixing together plant products directly which is trivially better than growing animals.
j_timberlake 1y ago
Nothing is ever "correctly priced". It's just more obvious with certain markets. Best example of this is when people say they want to pay "only their fair share of taxes". That's just, not how taxes work...

carlosjobim 1y ago

It's the same policy whether it's real meat patties or beyond meat, because beyond beef has the same main ingredient as the feed for the cattle: soybeans.

jplrssn 1y ago
How much soy does it take to raise 1kg of beef compared with producing 1kg of beyond meat?
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  Why does that matter? US ag subsidies are for crops. They effect cow prices the same as they effect beyond prices. Beyond is more expensive because it doesnt have enough competition.
zahlman 1y ago
Beyond Beef derives its protein from peas, and explicitly advertises "no soy".
- carlosjobim 1y ago
  You're right. I was looking at the ingredient list of artificial meat and it was mainly soybeans, but I was probably looking at the wrong brand or outdated information.

spwa4 1y ago

A lot of people would say it is a problem with making the entire population pay for the moral preferences of a few.

globular-toast 1y ago
True. People would have said the same in defence of colonialism, slavery, genocide etc. Generations later it's easy to look back and say "of course that stuff was bad, I would have fought against it too".
- kikokikokiko 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - rimbo789 1y ago
    That’s a funny way to say genocide
    - kikokikokiko 1y ago
      Like the one the aztecs regularly unleashed upon their neighbors? Or any pre-colonial tribe in the Americas or Africa (in this case up until this day really). What did the Romans brought us really?
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - ben_w 1y ago
        > What did the Romans brought us really? War, pestilence, famine, and death. An excuse like "everyone else was doing it!" only goes as far as making my ancestors "not spectacularly evil", it definitely does not make them "good". The railways are in the plus column, but would you accept your country being taken over by several different groups of aliens who draw random-seeming lines on the maps that even split up your existing cities between them, each forcing their own language and religious customs on their bit of your land, being really brutal in their suppression of any resistance campaigns, in exchange for a network of teleporter booths?
        1y ago

bluescrn 1y ago

[flagged]

ainiriand 1y ago
Have you never enjoyed a burger and a beer with your friends? Or is that you fail to see the social component of eating?
- bluescrn 1y ago
  Doesn't seem relevant. There's a decent amount of veggie/vegan options these days without using fake meat. Fake meat isn't really a product for vegetarians/vegans. It's is a product aimed at creating vegetarians/vegans, and that's going to be much harder.
  - pcthrowaway 1y ago
    I always feel like people are being intentionally obtuse when making these arguments. I'm vegan and know many vegans who enjoy beyond meat. We didn't go vegan because we didn't like the taste of things which were traditionally derived from animal flesh, and it's nice to be able to enjoy effectively the same foods without the animal exploitation.
  - henryaj 1y ago
    > Fake meat isn't really a product for vegetarians/vegans This is just flat-out wrong.
  - ainiriand 1y ago
    That is probably coming from someone that eats meat.
Klonoar 1y ago
Food is not just food: it's culture. These replacements have value because sometimes you want the thing that gives you that nostalgia kick or whatever specific feeling you associate with food. Old school plant based replacements don't always feel right for this.

wonderwonder 1y ago

The market decides the price. We don’t need politicians and biased scientists moralizing about what we can and can’t do and what we should care about.

OtherShrezzing 1y ago
That’s not really how the world works. Most governments already massively subsidises their agricultural sectors to create some desired eating habits in their population. The market just adjusts prices around those subsidies. If all subsidies were removed - in order to avoid the influence of moralising politicians - people would eat a lot more potatoes, and a lot less beef.
- stinkbeetle 1y ago
  > That’s not really how the world works. Most governments already massively subsidises their agricultural sectors to create some desired eating habits in their population. The market just adjusts prices around those subsidies. By global average, under 15% of farm revenue is derived from government subsidies. USA is below that, at about 10%. Not sure if I'd call that massive, but that's semantics so it's a little hard to argue against. Does potato agriculture get massive subsidies? > If all subsidies were removed - in order to avoid the influence of moralising politicians - people would eat a lot more potatoes, and a lot less beef. The assumptions being that 1. potato farming get relatively much less subsidies as beef (and other meat) farming; 2. cost is such a factor in consumption that price change would cause "a lot" of difference. I don't think either are very safe, and as a general statement it doesn't follow that just reducing agricultural subsidies increases ratio of beef to potato (or meat to vegetable): EU subsidies are much higher than US, but USA eats far more beef per capita.
  - jkestner 1y ago
    https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-data-says/ https://usafacts.org/articles/federal-farm-subsidies-what-da... Subsidies go mostly to corn and soybeans. Think those are multipurpose but corn is used to feed livestock, of course. 10 or 15% may be a lot in a low-margin industry, and I don't know how it's split among crops. No all subsidies are direct. For example, water costs too little in Arizona so foreign companies grow feed stock there to ship home.

greatgib 1y ago

All in all, despite the fact that it is not real meat, nothing proves that Beyond Meat production is better for the planet. If you factor production materials, energy,... Not sure what it gives. From what I understood why BM production was limited and expensive is that nothing beats nature. Cow meat manufacturing process was refined by nature for ten of thousands of years to be the most optimized possible.

hombre_fatal 1y ago
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets Every food is less destructive than beef by a ridiculous margin. And eating any food directly is less destructive than losing most of the calories to grow animal biomass. Beyond Meat is just mixing together plant products directly which is trivially better than growing animals.

j_timberlake 1y ago

Nothing is ever "correctly priced". It's just more obvious with certain markets. Best example of this is when people say they want to pay "only their fair share of taxes". That's just, not how taxes work...