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Vibe Coding seems to work best when you are already an experienced programmer. For example "Prompt: Write me an Atari BASIC program that draws a blue circle in

by edent 1y ago

Vibe Coding seems to work best when you are already an experienced programmer. For example "Prompt: Write me an Atari BASIC program that draws a blue circle in graphics mode 7." You need to know that there are various graphics modes and that mode 7 is the best for your use-case. Without that preexisting knowledge, you get stuck very quickly.

throwawaylaptop 1y ago
Exactly this. I'm a self taught PHP/jQuery guy that learned it well enough to make an entire saas that enough companies pay for that it's a decent little lifestyle business. I started another project recently basically vibe coding in PHP. Instead of a single page app like I made before, it's just page by page single loading. Which means the AI also only needs to keep a few functions and the database in its head, not constantly work on some crazy ui management framework (what that's called). It's made in a few days what would have taken me weeks as an amateur. Yet I know enough to catch a few 'mistakes' and remind it to do it better. I'm happy enough.
kqr 1y ago
Not only is it a useful constraint to ask for mode 7, but making sure the context contains domain-expert technology puts the LLM in a better spot in the sampling space.
cfn 1y ago
Just for fun I asked ChatGPT "How would you ask an LLM to write a drawing program for the ATARI?" and it asked back a bunch of details to which I answered "I have no idea, just go with the simplest option". It chose the correct graphics mode and BASIC and created the program (which I didn't test). I still agree with you for large applications but for these simple examples anyone with a basic understanding of vibe coding could wing it.
baxtr 1y ago
This is a description of a “tool”. Anyone can use a hammer and chisel to carve out wood, but only an artist with extensive experience will create something truly remarkable. I believe many in this debate are confusing tools with magic wands.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  this marketing and social media buzz that AI (artificial intelligence) that would replace human intelligence or people job for everyone didn't help either sure it maybe someday but not today, but there are jobs that already get replaced tho for example like writing industry
- Sharlin 1y ago
  > I believe many in this debate are confusing tools with magic wands. Unfortunately, it's usually the ones who control the money.
j4coh 1y ago
In this case I asked ChatGPT without the part specifying mode 7 and it replied with a working program using mode 7, with a comment at the top that mode 7 would be the best choice.
JdeBP 1y ago
Previous generations would have simply read something like the circle drawing writeup by Jeffrey S. McArthur in chapter 4 of COMPUTE!'s Third Book of Atari which as a matter of fact is available in scrapable text. (-: * https://archive.org/details/ataribooks-computes-third-book-of-atari/page/n3/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/ataribooks-computes-third-book-o... * https://atariarchives.org/c3ba/page153.php https://atariarchives.org/c3ba/page153.php Fun fact: Orson Scott Card can be found in chapter 1.
forinti 1y ago
Exactly! If you can't properly assess the output of the AI, you are really only shooting into the dark.
motorest 1y ago
> Vibe Coding seems to work best when you are already an experienced programmer. I think that is a very vague and ambiguous way of putting it. I would frame it a tad more specific: vibecode seems to work best when users know what they want and are able to set requirements and plan ahead. Vibecoding doesn't work at all or is an unmaintainable god awful mess if users don't do software engineering and instead hack stuff together hoping it works. Garbage in, garbage out.
johnisgood 1y ago
Exactly. I would not like to be called a vibe coder for using an LLM for tedious tasks though, is it not a pejorative term? I used LLMs for a few projects and it did well, because I knew what I wanted and how I wanted. So yeah, you do have to be an experienced programmer to excel with LLMs. That said, you can learn a lot using LLMs, which is nice. I have a friend who wants to learn Python, and I have given him actual resources, but I have also told him to use LLMs.
ack_complete 1y ago
Even then, I've seen LLMs generate code with subtle bugs that even experienced programmers would trip on. For the Atari specifically, I've seen: - Attempting to use BBC BASIC features in Atari BASIC, in ways that parsed but didn't work - Corrupting OS memory due to using addresses only valid on an Apple II - Using the ORG address for the C64, such that it corrupts memory if loaded from Atari DOS - Assembly that subtly doesn't work because it uses 65C02 instructions that execute as a NOP on a 6502 - Interrupt handlers that occasionally corrupt registers - Hardcoding internal OS addresses only valid for the OS ROM on one particular computer model The POKE 77,0 in the article is another good example. ChatGPT labeled that as hiding the cursor, but that's wrong -- location 77 is the attract timer counter on the Atari OS. Clearing it to 0 periodically resets the timer that controls the OS's primitive screensaver. But in order for this to work, it has to be done periodically -- doing it at the start will just reset this timer once, after which attract mode will start in 9 minutes. So effectively, this is an easter egg that got snuck into the program, and even if the unrequested behavior was desirable, doesn't work.

by edent 1y ago

throwawaylaptop 1y ago

Exactly this. I'm a self taught PHP/jQuery guy that learned it well enough to make an entire saas that enough companies pay for that it's a decent little lifestyle business. I started another project recently basically vibe coding in PHP. Instead of a single page app like I made before, it's just page by page single loading. Which means the AI also only needs to keep a few functions and the database in its head, not constantly work on some crazy ui management framework (what that's called). It's made in a few days what would have taken me weeks as an amateur. Yet I know enough to catch a few 'mistakes' and remind it to do it better. I'm happy enough.

kqr 1y ago

Not only is it a useful constraint to ask for mode 7, but making sure the context contains domain-expert technology puts the LLM in a better spot in the sampling space.

cfn 1y ago

Just for fun I asked ChatGPT "How would you ask an LLM to write a drawing program for the ATARI?" and it asked back a bunch of details to which I answered "I have no idea, just go with the simplest option". It chose the correct graphics mode and BASIC and created the program (which I didn't test). I still agree with you for large applications but for these simple examples anyone with a basic understanding of vibe coding could wing it.

baxtr 1y ago

This is a description of a “tool”. Anyone can use a hammer and chisel to carve out wood, but only an artist with extensive experience will create something truly remarkable. I believe many in this debate are confusing tools with magic wands.

tonyhart7 1y ago
this marketing and social media buzz that AI (artificial intelligence) that would replace human intelligence or people job for everyone didn't help either sure it maybe someday but not today, but there are jobs that already get replaced tho for example like writing industry
Sharlin 1y ago
> I believe many in this debate are confusing tools with magic wands. Unfortunately, it's usually the ones who control the money.

j4coh 1y ago

In this case I asked ChatGPT without the part specifying mode 7 and it replied with a working program using mode 7, with a comment at the top that mode 7 would be the best choice.

JdeBP 1y ago

Previous generations would have simply read something like the circle drawing writeup by Jeffrey S. McArthur in chapter 4 of COMPUTE!'s Third Book of Atari which as a matter of fact is available in scrapable text. (-: * https://archive.org/details/ataribooks-computes-third-book-of-atari/page/n3/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/ataribooks-computes-third-book-o... * https://atariarchives.org/c3ba/page153.php https://atariarchives.org/c3ba/page153.php Fun fact: Orson Scott Card can be found in chapter 1.

forinti 1y ago

Exactly! If you can't properly assess the output of the AI, you are really only shooting into the dark.

motorest 1y ago

> Vibe Coding seems to work best when you are already an experienced programmer. I think that is a very vague and ambiguous way of putting it. I would frame it a tad more specific: vibecode seems to work best when users know what they want and are able to set requirements and plan ahead. Vibecoding doesn't work at all or is an unmaintainable god awful mess if users don't do software engineering and instead hack stuff together hoping it works. Garbage in, garbage out.

johnisgood 1y ago

Exactly. I would not like to be called a vibe coder for using an LLM for tedious tasks though, is it not a pejorative term? I used LLMs for a few projects and it did well, because I knew what I wanted and how I wanted. So yeah, you do have to be an experienced programmer to excel with LLMs. That said, you can learn a lot using LLMs, which is nice. I have a friend who wants to learn Python, and I have given him actual resources, but I have also told him to use LLMs.

ack_complete 1y ago

Even then, I've seen LLMs generate code with subtle bugs that even experienced programmers would trip on. For the Atari specifically, I've seen: - Attempting to use BBC BASIC features in Atari BASIC, in ways that parsed but didn't work - Corrupting OS memory due to using addresses only valid on an Apple II - Using the ORG address for the C64, such that it corrupts memory if loaded from Atari DOS - Assembly that subtly doesn't work because it uses 65C02 instructions that execute as a NOP on a 6502 - Interrupt handlers that occasionally corrupt registers - Hardcoding internal OS addresses only valid for the OS ROM on one particular computer model The POKE 77,0 in the article is another good example. ChatGPT labeled that as hiding the cursor, but that's wrong -- location 77 is the attract timer counter on the Atari OS. Clearing it to 0 periodically resets the timer that controls the OS's primitive screensaver. But in order for this to work, it has to be done periodically -- doing it at the start will just reset this timer once, after which attract mode will start in 9 minutes. So effectively, this is an easter egg that got snuck into the program, and even if the unrequested behavior was desirable, doesn't work.