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It’s depressing to hear that you’ve given up on Element X, given that’s where all the work has been going, including ensuring the encryption is rock solid. Elem

It’s depressing to hear that you’ve given up on Element X, given that’s where all the work has been going, including ensuring the encryption is rock solid. Element Call is still webrtc; the fact it’s direct calling to a SFU rather than needing TURN for firewall traversal should be a good thing. How did you try to set it up? I did a basic walk through at https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo https://github.com/element-hq/element-docker-demo in case that helps.

AAAAaccountAAAA 1y ago
It's depressing to see and hear that New Vector is rewriting the flagship client about every 5 years or so, with each rewrite taking multiple years. Each time the new client is hailed as the saviour, and then after a while, denounced as obsolete. Soon again, the new saviour is right around the corner. That is not the way you create high-quality software in a cost-efficient manner. While Matrix has a value as the pretty much only open-standard IM system with even moderate levels of user adoption, all this makes it hard to actually love it or even to be enthustiastic about it.
- Arathorn 1y ago
  The only problem with this statement is that it’s untrue. Element Web/Desktop is 11 years old and has never been rewritten, and while we’re just starting to experiment with the Rust SDK for it, it’s unclear yet whether we migrate the current app to Rust SDK or write an Element X Web. Element iOS is also 11 years old, and as fun and expensive as it was maintaining three entirely separate codebases between iOS/Android/Web, we only switched to Rust with Element X as of Sept, and have no plans to switch again. Now, it’s true that Riot Android did get rewritten in ~2019 (into RiotX, which became Element Android) - mainly because it needed to get a proper storage layer and to move from Android 2.x vintage UI code. Now we have a common rust SDK to do all the heavy lifting it is reasonable to switch the app to use it, which is what Element X Android is. In other words, this whole exercise is trying to simplify development on to one stable Rust codebase, rather than hunting bugs and reimplementing features over 3 entirely separate codebases. If we did it again perhaps we’d try for a replace-the-engine like Signal did rather than rewrite-the-app - or perhaps do a big bang replacement when the rewrite is ready. But instead we wanted to get the new apps in the hands of users earlier, and we do not remotely have the funding to develop both old and new in parallel. Hopefully history will show this was an okay approach in the end, even if everyone hates us in the final stages of the transition.
hammyhavoc 1y ago
Element X is (e)xcellent. Just wanted to share that. Been using Matrix via Synapse since ~2019 and all the Matrix odds and ends require the least maintenance out of anything in the stack. Any uptime issues I've experienced have been my own silly fault with incorrect configurations. Even Element as it stands without the X builds is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else I've tried (and I have and continue to try a lot of FOSS, but nothing does what Element does as a client, nor what Matrix does as a protocol).
- Yoric 1y ago
  Yep, I'm also using Element X and I'm quite happy with it. It will be nice once all the features are in, but experience seems to indicate that I can live with better performance and fewer features.
ezst 1y ago
It's depressing to be told that we can pick between a moribund client and one that's barely usable, indeed. Element X is a mess. You can make it look good in comparison to the previous one on a "checkbox" basis like you just did, but it's clunky, buggy, and so unappealing that I don't see myself recommending it to anyone. Even tech nerds can't stand it any longer, which was the premise of this post. Yup, I get it, you are emotionally involved in all of this, and criticism hurts, but the only way "blaming it on the users" ends, is with no users left at all.
- Arathorn 1y ago
  are we even talking about the same app? This is literally the first time i’ve heard someone accuse Element X of being clunky, buggy or unappealing - including the original post? The criticism is that it’s not got threads/spaces, surely.
  - ezst 1y ago
    > This is literally the first time i’ve heard someone accuse Element X of being clunky, buggy or unappealing I mean, picked from the top of THIS comments section - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627333 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617565 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617604 (the linked article being a fourth)
    - Arathorn 1y ago
      right, so you are talking about the old legacy Element client, which all those links and the OP are complaining about being clunky/buggy/unappealing. Not the Element X rewrite, which everyone seems to agree is better… but just not feature complete yet. Thanks for clarifying :)
      - ezst 1y ago
        > talking about the old legacy Element client No, out of the 4 cited sources, at least 3 clearly identify Element X. Also, great way to miss the point: users can only bear so long being told that they are wrong.
_lvbh 1y ago
I don't actually dislike the new client. It's just that things don't work well between them. Afaik you can't call someone on Element X from old element.

AAAAaccountAAAA 1y ago

It's depressing to see and hear that New Vector is rewriting the flagship client about every 5 years or so, with each rewrite taking multiple years. Each time the new client is hailed as the saviour, and then after a while, denounced as obsolete. Soon again, the new saviour is right around the corner. That is not the way you create high-quality software in a cost-efficient manner. While Matrix has a value as the pretty much only open-standard IM system with even moderate levels of user adoption, all this makes it hard to actually love it or even to be enthustiastic about it.

Arathorn 1y ago
The only problem with this statement is that it’s untrue. Element Web/Desktop is 11 years old and has never been rewritten, and while we’re just starting to experiment with the Rust SDK for it, it’s unclear yet whether we migrate the current app to Rust SDK or write an Element X Web. Element iOS is also 11 years old, and as fun and expensive as it was maintaining three entirely separate codebases between iOS/Android/Web, we only switched to Rust with Element X as of Sept, and have no plans to switch again. Now, it’s true that Riot Android did get rewritten in ~2019 (into RiotX, which became Element Android) - mainly because it needed to get a proper storage layer and to move from Android 2.x vintage UI code. Now we have a common rust SDK to do all the heavy lifting it is reasonable to switch the app to use it, which is what Element X Android is. In other words, this whole exercise is trying to simplify development on to one stable Rust codebase, rather than hunting bugs and reimplementing features over 3 entirely separate codebases. If we did it again perhaps we’d try for a replace-the-engine like Signal did rather than rewrite-the-app - or perhaps do a big bang replacement when the rewrite is ready. But instead we wanted to get the new apps in the hands of users earlier, and we do not remotely have the funding to develop both old and new in parallel. Hopefully history will show this was an okay approach in the end, even if everyone hates us in the final stages of the transition.

hammyhavoc 1y ago

Element X is (e)xcellent. Just wanted to share that. Been using Matrix via Synapse since ~2019 and all the Matrix odds and ends require the least maintenance out of anything in the stack. Any uptime issues I've experienced have been my own silly fault with incorrect configurations. Even Element as it stands without the X builds is leaps and bounds ahead of anything else I've tried (and I have and continue to try a lot of FOSS, but nothing does what Element does as a client, nor what Matrix does as a protocol).

Yoric 1y ago
Yep, I'm also using Element X and I'm quite happy with it. It will be nice once all the features are in, but experience seems to indicate that I can live with better performance and fewer features.

ezst 1y ago

It's depressing to be told that we can pick between a moribund client and one that's barely usable, indeed. Element X is a mess. You can make it look good in comparison to the previous one on a "checkbox" basis like you just did, but it's clunky, buggy, and so unappealing that I don't see myself recommending it to anyone. Even tech nerds can't stand it any longer, which was the premise of this post. Yup, I get it, you are emotionally involved in all of this, and criticism hurts, but the only way "blaming it on the users" ends, is with no users left at all.

Arathorn 1y ago
are we even talking about the same app? This is literally the first time i’ve heard someone accuse Element X of being clunky, buggy or unappealing - including the original post? The criticism is that it’s not got threads/spaces, surely.
- ezst 1y ago
  > This is literally the first time i’ve heard someone accuse Element X of being clunky, buggy or unappealing I mean, picked from the top of THIS comments section - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627333 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627333 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617565 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44617604 (the linked article being a fourth)
  - Arathorn 1y ago
    right, so you are talking about the old legacy Element client, which all those links and the OP are complaining about being clunky/buggy/unappealing. Not the Element X rewrite, which everyone seems to agree is better… but just not feature complete yet. Thanks for clarifying :)
    - ezst 1y ago
      > talking about the old legacy Element client No, out of the 4 cited sources, at least 3 clearly identify Element X. Also, great way to miss the point: users can only bear so long being told that they are wrong.

_lvbh 1y ago

I don't actually dislike the new client. It's just that things don't work well between them. Afaik you can't call someone on Element X from old element.