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Leases often work this way. In theory it's illegal in the UK (for a home, businesses are assumed to be big boys who can negotiate on equal footing) but it's sti

Leases often work this way. In theory it's illegal in the UK (for a home, businesses are assumed to be big boys who can negotiate on equal footing) but it's still pretty common to be charged when you move out. Specifically UK law says "reasonable wear and tear" is just an expected cost of people living in a house you let to them - so e.g. they're going to wear out carpet after some years, but a cigar burn is not OK, the walls won't look pristine but there shouldn't be graffiti, that sort of thing. They should vacuum floors but it's not reasonable to expect dust to magically vanish from every nook. In practice in many cases you move out leaving the place very habitable, you get told they "had" to clean up your mess, and it's a suspiciously round number like £80 and they have plenty more "necessary" charges like this. In theory in the UK they're required to provide receipts showing their actual expense, but in practice they're looking at this as free revenue and most of their clients can't fight back. I was buying, freeing me from the obvious revenge if I say "Fuck you" but there were a lot of other things to do for the move and having fought them down from the original outrageous fees they wanted I gave up although I did get as far as reporting them to their regulator and threatening legal action. In hindsight I'm quite sure I could have got to $0 and possibly also got the most senior woman who was straight up lying and clearly had done all this many times removed from the register of people fit to let out properties, but I didn't and I feel bad about that.

jplrssn 1y ago
They absolutely prey on people not being having the time/resources to fight back. A friend in the UK had his deposit withheld as "mail charges" by his landlord upon moving out. Turned out the fine print in his lease said that he wasn't allowed to receive mail at the house he was legally renting.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  I have no idea what “mail” is, but I’d love to see the result of the outcome when they issues a challenge at the deposit protection company.
  - jplrssn 1y ago
    > I have no idea what “mail” is Not a native speaker. How do you refer to the pieces of paper that the Royal Mail sometimes drop through your letterbox?
    - Macha 1y ago
      Ironically, despite the company being called the Royal Mail, the letters it delivers are referred to as "post". This is unlike the US Postal Service, which delivers "mail".
      - jplrssn 1y ago
        Interesting! Thanks.
        Macha 1y ago
        To be clear, mail and post are the same thing, one is US English and the other UK English, though as you can see from the names of the companies involved, the distinction was not always so clear cut. The comment claiming not to know what "mail" was clearly struck people as a little dismissive of US English (any native English speaker knows both "mail" and "post", regardless of which one is used locally)
- dwroberts 1y ago
  > his lease said that he wasn't allowed to receive mail at the house he was legally renting. Pretty sure that is not a stipulation you can legally put in a tenancy contract. Because both parties have to be able to serve notice on the other via post in writing. Same reason you are legally entitled to know the postal address of the landlord.
  - jplrssn 1y ago
    I'm sure you are right, but that didn't stop the landlord from trying their luck. Your observation about serving notice is on point, because in the end the deposit was returned only after my friend filed a small claims case against them.
FireBeyond 1y ago
I had friends whose landlord attempted to charge them cleaning fees for an apartment that they were renovating down to the studs (and had told them that, etc. They'd been working through the complex. They had to go to small claims. You can't claim a repair fee for some scratches and dents in drywall that you had crowbarred out the day after vacation of the property.
- pixl97 1y ago
  Always take full pictures of a unit the day you move in before any items are in, and the day you move out after cleaning. That's already saved me once when a property manager tried to do this to us.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    Hah, an apartment complex I was at had me go sit in the PM's office prior to our move out inspection. "She'll be with you in a minute". Without snooping (I just caught my name on a form on her desk out of the corner of my eye), I noticed that it was my move out inspection form. It already had remarks on it like "blinds dirty, need professional cleaning", "scuffs on drywall, needs painting", "carpet stains, need professional cleaning". Huh. She comes in, grabs the paperwork from her desk and says "Alright, let's do this". "Actually, I couldn't help but notice you'd already started charging me for things before we've even inspected the apartment". Cue some stammering. "Oh... uhh... that's strange. That must have already been on the form when I copied it from someone else's" (Oh, really, the printed form with my info with blue pen writing?). And then there was the time that I needed a six month lease, but the PM company didn't want to do less than 12. I said "what it I pay the six months in full, up front, and the lease has no extension, so you know that I'll be gone and you can be planning for the next tenant in advance?". They talk to the owner, sure, that will work. I write a check for $14,000, six months rent at $2,000/mo, plus a security deposit. "That will be $18,000, actually." Huh? "We also need first and last month." Uhhh, what? It took far too long to explain to them that they were getting first, last, and the intermediary in the form of $12K. And got the distinct impression, from the stubborn inability to "comprehend" and "explain" that they thought that I wouldn't question it and just hand over another $4,000.
heisenbit 1y ago
Lost my deposit in the U.K. way back so it is not a new phenomenon. Landlords were lawyers so I figured it is not worth fighting especially from abroad.
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Far better with the deposit protection. You aren’t tying to get money back from a landlord, they’re trying yo get you to agree to release some of it, it’s effectively held in escrow.
Symbiote 1y ago
I've received thousands of pounds back twice, by arguing my case with the Deposit Protection Scheme. It wasn't difficult, though it helped that I'd taken lots of pictures on the day I moved out

jplrssn 1y ago

They absolutely prey on people not being having the time/resources to fight back. A friend in the UK had his deposit withheld as "mail charges" by his landlord upon moving out. Turned out the fine print in his lease said that he wasn't allowed to receive mail at the house he was legally renting.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hdgvhicv 1y ago
I have no idea what “mail” is, but I’d love to see the result of the outcome when they issues a challenge at the deposit protection company.
- jplrssn 1y ago
  > I have no idea what “mail” is Not a native speaker. How do you refer to the pieces of paper that the Royal Mail sometimes drop through your letterbox?
  - Macha 1y ago
    Ironically, despite the company being called the Royal Mail, the letters it delivers are referred to as "post". This is unlike the US Postal Service, which delivers "mail".
    - jplrssn 1y ago
      Interesting! Thanks.
      - Macha 1y ago
        To be clear, mail and post are the same thing, one is US English and the other UK English, though as you can see from the names of the companies involved, the distinction was not always so clear cut. The comment claiming not to know what "mail" was clearly struck people as a little dismissive of US English (any native English speaker knows both "mail" and "post", regardless of which one is used locally)
dwroberts 1y ago
> his lease said that he wasn't allowed to receive mail at the house he was legally renting. Pretty sure that is not a stipulation you can legally put in a tenancy contract. Because both parties have to be able to serve notice on the other via post in writing. Same reason you are legally entitled to know the postal address of the landlord.
- jplrssn 1y ago
  I'm sure you are right, but that didn't stop the landlord from trying their luck. Your observation about serving notice is on point, because in the end the deposit was returned only after my friend filed a small claims case against them.

FireBeyond 1y ago

I had friends whose landlord attempted to charge them cleaning fees for an apartment that they were renovating down to the studs (and had told them that, etc. They'd been working through the complex. They had to go to small claims. You can't claim a repair fee for some scratches and dents in drywall that you had crowbarred out the day after vacation of the property.

pixl97 1y ago
Always take full pictures of a unit the day you move in before any items are in, and the day you move out after cleaning. That's already saved me once when a property manager tried to do this to us.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Hah, an apartment complex I was at had me go sit in the PM's office prior to our move out inspection. "She'll be with you in a minute". Without snooping (I just caught my name on a form on her desk out of the corner of my eye), I noticed that it was my move out inspection form. It already had remarks on it like "blinds dirty, need professional cleaning", "scuffs on drywall, needs painting", "carpet stains, need professional cleaning". Huh. She comes in, grabs the paperwork from her desk and says "Alright, let's do this". "Actually, I couldn't help but notice you'd already started charging me for things before we've even inspected the apartment". Cue some stammering. "Oh... uhh... that's strange. That must have already been on the form when I copied it from someone else's" (Oh, really, the printed form with my info with blue pen writing?). And then there was the time that I needed a six month lease, but the PM company didn't want to do less than 12. I said "what it I pay the six months in full, up front, and the lease has no extension, so you know that I'll be gone and you can be planning for the next tenant in advance?". They talk to the owner, sure, that will work. I write a check for $14,000, six months rent at $2,000/mo, plus a security deposit. "That will be $18,000, actually." Huh? "We also need first and last month." Uhhh, what? It took far too long to explain to them that they were getting first, last, and the intermediary in the form of $12K. And got the distinct impression, from the stubborn inability to "comprehend" and "explain" that they thought that I wouldn't question it and just hand over another $4,000.

heisenbit 1y ago

Lost my deposit in the U.K. way back so it is not a new phenomenon. Landlords were lawyers so I figured it is not worth fighting especially from abroad.

hdgvhicv 1y ago
Far better with the deposit protection. You aren’t tying to get money back from a landlord, they’re trying yo get you to agree to release some of it, it’s effectively held in escrow.

Symbiote 1y ago

I've received thousands of pounds back twice, by arguing my case with the Deposit Protection Scheme. It wasn't difficult, though it helped that I'd taken lots of pictures on the day I moved out