11 ms·

You can hypothesize something older too: that neoteny is about mammalian caretaking, not even human per se. I hypothesize if it's furry and small enough, with s

You can hypothesize something older too: that neoteny is about mammalian caretaking, not even human per se. I hypothesize if it's furry and small enough, with simple enough facial features, it will look cute.

xg15 1y ago
Interesting point. Yeah, maybe that instinct is so old, it dates back to human ancestors that still had fur... Of course, this could also support OP's hypothesis: Maybe there was another set of visual receptors (triggering on cat ears, muzzles or stripes?) that evolved specifically to detect big cats, because they were dangerous predators to us - and we're "mis"using those visual receptors as well now. I'm not completely convinced: There are other examples of evolved visual receptors against predators that are well-known I think - like spiders. And they do cause a response, but that response is overwhelmingly negative, sometimes so intensely so that it can drive people into a phobia. So it doesn't seem like a negative trigger can flip into a positive one so easily. Then again, some people have pet spiders and think they are cute, so - who knows... Edit: Also, maybe the scale plays a role? Spiders are tiny, even the dangerous ones - so a "detector" would have to be highly sensitive, triggering strong responses even for very small stimuli. In contrast, big cats are big. The detector could afford to be a lot less sensitive, because the scale itself is a feature - so when watching a small housecat, the detector's response could be subdued enough to be "pleasant" in a "spicy food" or "horror movie" sense, especially if you combine it with the already positive response from the "cuteness" detector. Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling...
- throwup238 1y ago
  > Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling... It does make sense but this is why evolutionary biology debates about specific features or organisms are so fruitless - a well known landmine within the field. You can come up with a “just so” story to explain just about any evolutionary path.
  - xg15 1y ago
    Not a biologist, but I'd think it depends what you then do with your stories. If you treat it as a hypothesis to be tested, I don't see a problem - I think any way to come up with hypotheses is valid, as long as you're not repeating already investigated paths without new evidence. On the other hand, treating a story as "true", only because it sounds somewhat compelling and logically consistent is a trap. This is how you get dogmatism and fringe stuff.
    - throwup238 1y ago
      > Not a biologist, but I'd think it depends what you then do with your stories. You’re not an evolutionary biologist so you probably don’t even know what it means to formulate or test a hypothesis in that field (I have only a peripheral involvement in that field and even I wouldn’t care to hazard a guess because bioinformatics is complicated and full of deadly traps). What are you going to do with it beyond use it as a speculative just so story? And hey, there’s nothing wrong with doing that on an internet forum, as long as you’re aware just how little predictive value there is. The closest equivalent I can think of is all those fantastical sea monsters and land masses cartographers used to draw in old maps instead of just saying “I don’t know.” As long as no explorer ever ventured there, they could come up with any story they wanted to.
      - xg15 1y ago
        Yeah, I'm not from the field, so I'm probably missing the cause of that negativity? I can just try to explain what part of this I'd find valuable to research. All that speculation - mine's, GP's, OP's - hinges on one assumption: That something like hereditary visual detectors in the brain exist. I.e. that there are structures in the brain that have "weights" for large eyes, or cat features or spider features, etc etc - and that those weights are not learned by the individual, but are somehow "hardcoded" and passed down the germ line - which would allow them to be "learned" through evolution of the species. As a programmer and with my hobbyist understanding of molecular biology, I'd see this as a pretty remarkable hypothesis. Right now, I don't see how this could possibly work: The brain and even the eyes of every person are different, so how could such a detector be "reconstructed" on a cellular level for an individual who has never seen a spider? It would also raise interesting follow-up questions, both if it were confirmed or disproven: If it were confirmed, does this mean there are encoded bits of visual information in the DNA? Could we decode them somehow and get "photographs" from prehistoric or even pre-human times? (Or well, less photographs and more something like the "eigenfaces" of face detectors) Are there more such hardwired circuits we didn't know yet? Are there similar circuits for other senses or for higher-level areas in the brain? On the other hand, if it were disproven, we'd have to rethink situations where we take the existence of such hardwired stimuli almost for granted, like in sexual imagery. The cat stuff itself has no predictive value, but it points into directions that could deliver it.
- mrob 1y ago
  I think eye size is important. Most spiders aren't considered cute but jumping spiders are an exception for many people because they have big eyes, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_spider#/media/File:PlatycryptusUndatusFemale.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_spider#/media/File:Pla... And even the tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (robots inspired by jumping spiders) can be considered cute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma

xg15 1y ago

Interesting point. Yeah, maybe that instinct is so old, it dates back to human ancestors that still had fur... Of course, this could also support OP's hypothesis: Maybe there was another set of visual receptors (triggering on cat ears, muzzles or stripes?) that evolved specifically to detect big cats, because they were dangerous predators to us - and we're "mis"using those visual receptors as well now. I'm not completely convinced: There are other examples of evolved visual receptors against predators that are well-known I think - like spiders. And they do cause a response, but that response is overwhelmingly negative, sometimes so intensely so that it can drive people into a phobia. So it doesn't seem like a negative trigger can flip into a positive one so easily. Then again, some people have pet spiders and think they are cute, so - who knows... Edit: Also, maybe the scale plays a role? Spiders are tiny, even the dangerous ones - so a "detector" would have to be highly sensitive, triggering strong responses even for very small stimuli. In contrast, big cats are big. The detector could afford to be a lot less sensitive, because the scale itself is a feature - so when watching a small housecat, the detector's response could be subdued enough to be "pleasant" in a "spicy food" or "horror movie" sense, especially if you combine it with the already positive response from the "cuteness" detector. Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling...

throwup238 1y ago
> Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling... It does make sense but this is why evolutionary biology debates about specific features or organisms are so fruitless - a well known landmine within the field. You can come up with a “just so” story to explain just about any evolutionary path.
- xg15 1y ago
  Not a biologist, but I'd think it depends what you then do with your stories. If you treat it as a hypothesis to be tested, I don't see a problem - I think any way to come up with hypotheses is valid, as long as you're not repeating already investigated paths without new evidence. On the other hand, treating a story as "true", only because it sounds somewhat compelling and logically consistent is a trap. This is how you get dogmatism and fringe stuff.
  - throwup238 1y ago
    > Not a biologist, but I'd think it depends what you then do with your stories. You’re not an evolutionary biologist so you probably don’t even know what it means to formulate or test a hypothesis in that field (I have only a peripheral involvement in that field and even I wouldn’t care to hazard a guess because bioinformatics is complicated and full of deadly traps). What are you going to do with it beyond use it as a speculative just so story? And hey, there’s nothing wrong with doing that on an internet forum, as long as you’re aware just how little predictive value there is. The closest equivalent I can think of is all those fantastical sea monsters and land masses cartographers used to draw in old maps instead of just saying “I don’t know.” As long as no explorer ever ventured there, they could come up with any story they wanted to.
    - xg15 1y ago
      Yeah, I'm not from the field, so I'm probably missing the cause of that negativity? I can just try to explain what part of this I'd find valuable to research. All that speculation - mine's, GP's, OP's - hinges on one assumption: That something like hereditary visual detectors in the brain exist. I.e. that there are structures in the brain that have "weights" for large eyes, or cat features or spider features, etc etc - and that those weights are not learned by the individual, but are somehow "hardcoded" and passed down the germ line - which would allow them to be "learned" through evolution of the species. As a programmer and with my hobbyist understanding of molecular biology, I'd see this as a pretty remarkable hypothesis. Right now, I don't see how this could possibly work: The brain and even the eyes of every person are different, so how could such a detector be "reconstructed" on a cellular level for an individual who has never seen a spider? It would also raise interesting follow-up questions, both if it were confirmed or disproven: If it were confirmed, does this mean there are encoded bits of visual information in the DNA? Could we decode them somehow and get "photographs" from prehistoric or even pre-human times? (Or well, less photographs and more something like the "eigenfaces" of face detectors) Are there more such hardwired circuits we didn't know yet? Are there similar circuits for other senses or for higher-level areas in the brain? On the other hand, if it were disproven, we'd have to rethink situations where we take the existence of such hardwired stimuli almost for granted, like in sexual imagery. The cat stuff itself has no predictive value, but it points into directions that could deliver it.
mrob 1y ago
I think eye size is important. Most spiders aren't considered cute but jumping spiders are an exception for many people because they have big eyes, e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_spider#/media/File:PlatycryptusUndatusFemale.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_spider#/media/File:Pla... And even the tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex (robots inspired by jumping spiders) can be considered cute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachikoma