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I don't disagree. Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture and then Fascism, as the US is demonstrating beautifully right now. The ideal form o

I don't disagree. Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture and then Fascism, as the US is demonstrating beautifully right now. The ideal form of government is Titoism, with strong repression of regressive forces.

msgodel 1y ago
Yeah that's the problem with it. It wasn't communist and aggressive enough. Certainly everyone would have wanted it if it were.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  That's the beautiful thing, if it had been communist and aggressive, it wouldn't have mattered if the fascists wanted it or not.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    >Why is everyone suddenly tearing down all our shared institutions? All we wanted to do was force a communist revolution on them!
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      It is the other way around. The tear-down of the shared institutions proves that a communist revolution would've been the right move in hindsight.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - hollerith 1y ago
        At least you admit you want a communist revolution rather than using euphemisms like "aligning governmental policy with science and reason" or "programs informed by a root-cause analysis".
        saubeidl 1y ago
        As Rosa Luxemburg said, it's socialism or barbarism. It is unfortunate we seem to be going down the path of the latter. To me, it proves the non-viability of electoralism.
        msgodel 1y ago
        The biggest thing that makes communism just completely non-viable is the simultaneous demand for socialism/democracy and internationalism. Different people just aren't going to agree on social norms and some groups are going to abuse certain things more than other groups. In the past between freedom of association and low levels of migration people could kind of work that out but when you force people to use public services for everything that's completely impossible. You get one or the other at most. Both at the same time is an immediate non-starter for pretty much everyone.
        saubeidl 1y ago
        By the way, I share the worry you express in your profile. Imo, eco-socialism is the only way out, there's no way capital interests will give up on burning our planet in their attempt to finally become fully independent of labor. Do you have any better ideas?
        hollerith 1y ago
        Although I don't think communism is a good idea, we find ourselves facing a danger and a menace much more potent than communism IMHO, so I would warmly welcome a communist takeover of my country (the US) if it would reliably stop AI research in my country and keep it stopped. (I'm OK with people's continuing to use models that have already seen widespread usage: it's the training of large new models I want to stop -- that and any attempts to improve human understanding of the fundamentals of machine learning.) But I tend to think that most communists are neutral or positive in their attitude toward AI research. For example, according to a credible China expert, Xi Jinping has directed China to pursue AI research very aggressively.
pqtyw 1y ago
> with strong repression of regressive forces. Things like freedom of speech or political organizations which are not subservient to the state? Of course unrestricted freedom of speech can devolve into whatever has been happening in the US for quite a while but still... don't see how "enlightened totalitarianism" is an answer to that.
- ta1243 1y ago
  The problem the US has is it's unwavering belief that state = bad, not state = good This tends to allow corporations to do all the bad things that states can do, with no checks or balances. Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations and use their voice in the state to attempt to moderate that.
  - Yeul 1y ago
    Americans have this naive belief that they can withstand corruption.
  - pqtyw 1y ago
    > belief that state = bad, not state = good authoritarian state that restricts basic individual freedoms = bad Not sure sure how could you have inferred anything else from my comment. > Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations Grass is always greener and such. Corporations in Europe have massive amounts of political influence. They are just not as good at making money as American corporations so have less resources to spend on stuff like that.
ta1243 1y ago
> Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture Does it? Is this a major problem in say Sweden, or Switzerland, or New Zealand?
- jemmyw 1y ago
  Yes, in New Zealand we've had at least 3 cases already reported with the current conservative government where corporations have captured regulation.

msgodel 1y ago

Yeah that's the problem with it. It wasn't communist and aggressive enough. Certainly everyone would have wanted it if it were.

saubeidl 1y ago
That's the beautiful thing, if it had been communist and aggressive, it wouldn't have mattered if the fascists wanted it or not.
- msgodel 1y ago
  >Why is everyone suddenly tearing down all our shared institutions? All we wanted to do was force a communist revolution on them!
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    It is the other way around. The tear-down of the shared institutions proves that a communist revolution would've been the right move in hindsight.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - hollerith 1y ago
      At least you admit you want a communist revolution rather than using euphemisms like "aligning governmental policy with science and reason" or "programs informed by a root-cause analysis".
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        As Rosa Luxemburg said, it's socialism or barbarism. It is unfortunate we seem to be going down the path of the latter. To me, it proves the non-viability of electoralism.
        msgodel 1y ago
        The biggest thing that makes communism just completely non-viable is the simultaneous demand for socialism/democracy and internationalism. Different people just aren't going to agree on social norms and some groups are going to abuse certain things more than other groups. In the past between freedom of association and low levels of migration people could kind of work that out but when you force people to use public services for everything that's completely impossible. You get one or the other at most. Both at the same time is an immediate non-starter for pretty much everyone.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        By the way, I share the worry you express in your profile. Imo, eco-socialism is the only way out, there's no way capital interests will give up on burning our planet in their attempt to finally become fully independent of labor. Do you have any better ideas?
        hollerith 1y ago
        Although I don't think communism is a good idea, we find ourselves facing a danger and a menace much more potent than communism IMHO, so I would warmly welcome a communist takeover of my country (the US) if it would reliably stop AI research in my country and keep it stopped. (I'm OK with people's continuing to use models that have already seen widespread usage: it's the training of large new models I want to stop -- that and any attempts to improve human understanding of the fundamentals of machine learning.) But I tend to think that most communists are neutral or positive in their attitude toward AI research. For example, according to a credible China expert, Xi Jinping has directed China to pursue AI research very aggressively.

pqtyw 1y ago

> with strong repression of regressive forces. Things like freedom of speech or political organizations which are not subservient to the state? Of course unrestricted freedom of speech can devolve into whatever has been happening in the US for quite a while but still... don't see how "enlightened totalitarianism" is an answer to that.

ta1243 1y ago
The problem the US has is it's unwavering belief that state = bad, not state = good This tends to allow corporations to do all the bad things that states can do, with no checks or balances. Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations and use their voice in the state to attempt to moderate that.
- Yeul 1y ago
  Americans have this naive belief that they can withstand corruption.
- pqtyw 1y ago
  > belief that state = bad, not state = good authoritarian state that restricts basic individual freedoms = bad Not sure sure how could you have inferred anything else from my comment. > Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations Grass is always greener and such. Corporations in Europe have massive amounts of political influence. They are just not as good at making money as American corporations so have less resources to spend on stuff like that.

ta1243 1y ago

> Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture Does it? Is this a major problem in say Sweden, or Switzerland, or New Zealand?

jemmyw 1y ago
Yes, in New Zealand we've had at least 3 cases already reported with the current conservative government where corporations have captured regulation.