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The proponents of liberal democracy should have sold it better.
by msgodel 1y ago
The proponents of liberal democracy should have sold it better.
- saubeidl 1y agoI don't disagree. Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture and then Fascism, as the US is demonstrating beautifully right now. The ideal form of government is Titoism, with strong repression of regressive forces.
- msgodel 1y agoYeah that's the problem with it. It wasn't communist and aggressive enough. Certainly everyone would have wanted it if it were.
- saubeidl 1y agoThat's the beautiful thing, if it had been communist and aggressive, it wouldn't have mattered if the fascists wanted it or not.
- msgodel 1y ago>Why is everyone suddenly tearing down all our shared institutions? All we wanted to do was force a communist revolution on them!
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- saubeidl 1y agoIt is the other way around. The tear-down of the shared institutions proves that a communist revolution would've been the right move in hindsight.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- hollerith 1y agoAt least you admit you want a communist revolution rather than using euphemisms like "aligning governmental policy with science and reason" or "programs informed by a root-cause analysis".
- saubeidl 1y agoAs Rosa Luxemburg said, it's socialism or barbarism. It is unfortunate we seem to be going down the path of the latter. To me, it proves the non-viability of electoralism.
- msgodel 1y agoThe biggest thing that makes communism just completely non-viable is the simultaneous demand for socialism/democracy and internationalism. Different people just aren't going to agree on social norms and some groups are going to abuse certain things more than other groups. In the past between freedom of association and low levels of migration people could kind of work that out but when you force people to use public services for everything that's completely impossible. You get one or the other at most. Both at the same time is an immediate non-starter for pretty much everyone.
- saubeidl 1y agoBy the way, I share the worry you express in your profile. Imo, eco-socialism is the only way out, there's no way capital interests will give up on burning our planet in their attempt to finally become fully independent of labor. Do you have any better ideas?
- hollerith 1y agoAlthough I don't think communism is a good idea, we find ourselves facing a danger and a menace much more potent than communism IMHO, so I would warmly welcome a communist takeover of my country (the US) if it would reliably stop AI research in my country and keep it stopped. (I'm OK with people's continuing to use models that have already seen widespread usage: it's the training of large new models I want to stop -- that and any attempts to improve human understanding of the fundamentals of machine learning.) But I tend to think that most communists are neutral or positive in their attitude toward AI research. For example, according to a credible China expert, Xi Jinping has directed China to pursue AI research very aggressively.
- pqtyw 1y ago> with strong repression of regressive forces. Things like freedom of speech or political organizations which are not subservient to the state? Of course unrestricted freedom of speech can devolve into whatever has been happening in the US for quite a while but still... don't see how "enlightened totalitarianism" is an answer to that.
- ta1243 1y agoThe problem the US has is it's unwavering belief that state = bad, not state = good This tends to allow corporations to do all the bad things that states can do, with no checks or balances. Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations and use their voice in the state to attempt to moderate that.
- Yeul 1y agoAmericans have this naive belief that they can withstand corruption.
- pqtyw 1y ago> belief that state = bad, not state = good authoritarian state that restricts basic individual freedoms = bad Not sure sure how could you have inferred anything else from my comment. > Other countries have a far larger mistrust of corporations Grass is always greener and such. Corporations in Europe have massive amounts of political influence. They are just not as good at making money as American corporations so have less resources to spend on stuff like that.
- ta1243 1y ago> Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture Does it? Is this a major problem in say Sweden, or Switzerland, or New Zealand?
- jemmyw 1y agoYes, in New Zealand we've had at least 3 cases already reported with the current conservative government where corporations have captured regulation.
- motorest 1y ago> The proponents of liberal democracy should have sold it better. That sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming. What's worse is that your blend of comments somehow omits the fact that fascism is not being openly pushed onto people. Instead, fascists frame their intentions as granting them the authority to impose populist policies within the framework of liberal democracies. The problem is that, as Nazi Germany proved, once these fascists are in power they pull a bait-and-switch onto their own supporters.
- saubeidl 1y agoIt is fascist rhetoric taking delight that their authoritarian project has succeeded.
- watwut 1y agoTo be fair, German Nazi were openly against democracy. It was not bait and switch, it was you get what you was promised. Contemporary fascists pay lit service to it and like to accuse opponents of not being democratic. Tho, to large extend, conservatives lead by Trump are also doing what was known they will do.
- libertine 1y agoRussia has been the main sponsor of fascism. They have full networks pushing content promoting and platforming it, and nothing is done about this.
- msgodel 1y ago>victim-blaming. That is a crazy way to phrase that. I think it reveals a lot about what democracy really means at a fundamental level.