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Of course, it doesn't help anyone to generalise. Europe has a wide demographic. But, one thing that doesn't happen is its attitude to sex affecting worldwide

by louthy 1y ago

Of course, it doesn't help anyone to generalise. Europe has a wide demographic. But, one thing that doesn't happen is its attitude to sex affecting worldwide commerce or other worldwide issues. Here in the UK religion and sex are not part of the national conversation. A politician mentioning their love of god would seem weird to us. The only way it enters the national conversation are when right-wing religious zealots, from the US, try to affect our laws: I'm thinking of abortion laws and trans rights. These are entirely imported issues from US religious hangups. It's quite tedious, because mostly we were on a path of reasonable discourse with relation to sex, sexuality, relationships (marriage), etc. but with the advent of social media you see pockets of society being dragged into it. I have friends in much of Europe (Sweden, Norway, France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Croatia, Slovakia, Poland, Romania, Greece) and have travelled to those destinations extensively. I still can't speak for all of Europe, but I think when it comes to sex and religion we're kinda similar. The only one that stands out to me was the Greek Orthodox church used to have an out-sized role, but even that doesn't seem to be the case any more (I just came back from visiting friends in Greece a few weeks back and we discussed this). So whilst we can't say all of Europe is the same, we can say that it's not causing global problems due to its sexual and religious hangups.

ses1984 1y ago
Religion is a factor in Polish politics.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  Absolutely. Italy too. I think a better way to phrase it: There are many countries in Europe where a right wing party uses the rise of Islam due to immigrants as a political issue.
ChickeNES 1y ago
Yeah when I went to the UK and tried to view adult content using a prepaid SIM, it was blocked and required verifying that I was an adult, and this was done at the ISP level. And I know for a fact that the UK has much stricter limits on kink and BDSM in adult content as well. What gives with people claiming it's just the US?
- louthy 1y ago
  > required verifying that I was an adult Log in to your account and toggle the “I want porn” option? It’s annoying, but not onerous. > And I know for a fact that the UK has much stricter limits on kink and BDSM in adult content as well. I know what you’re referring to, but don’t know the full details. I believe it’s around violent porn (rape, etc). We certainly have a “think of the children” brigade. I still think the discourse is significantly more civilised than that of the US, which feels like it’s approaching virtual civil war levels. When these subjects are debated, it's usually in parliament and doesn't turn into some societal ideological divide. I think some of the policies you mention are more artefacts of the politicians not understanding the technological future we’re in, rather than ideology. Many of them think they can make the internet a safe space for kids through policy. It’s naive, for sure, but usually not dogmatic. > What gives with people claiming it's just the US? It’s not just the US, but when the people standing outside of UK abortion clinics harassing women are funded by US ‘pro life’ religious groups then you know there’s a problem. Puritanism is a US export. The vitriolic political divisions in the US, which leads to all sorts of fringe issues becoming mainstream (trans rights, for example), is leaking out into the rest of the western democracies, poisoning the debate everywhere. The Visa issue is just one more of these puritanical US exports.
  - pqtyw 1y ago
    > It’s annoying, but not onerous. So government regulating stuff like that does go against much of the thing you said in the comment above? > doesn't turn into some societal ideological divide. When governments try to introduce mass surveillance of personal communications to "protect the children" liek ChatControl maybe it should turn into one. Instead of everyone just handwaving and ignoring it...
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - louthy 1y ago
      >> It’s annoying, but not onerous. > So government regulating stuff like that does go against much of the thing you said in the comment above? It isn't law. But even if it was, that doesn't contradict what I am talking about. I'm talking about the export of puritanism. If you think having to turn the porn button from 'off' to 'on' in your phone contract's options is the same, then I don't know what to say. > When governments try to introduce mass surveillance of personal communications to "protect the children" liek ChatControl maybe it should turn into one. Yeah maybe, but that's not the topic of conversation here. The topic was about puritanical beliefs in the US and how its export affects the world (like the Visa issue).
aaaja 1y ago
> trans rights. These are entirely imported issues from US religious hangups. No, in the UK it was left-wing feminists who led the opposition to gender identity policies long before any conservatives got involved, on the basis of this being harmful to women's rights. Just look at the recent For Women Scotland win in the Supreme Court, it's nothing to do with US religious groups at all, and everything to do with protecting sex-based rights and sexual orientation in law.
- louthy 1y ago
  That was waaaay after it had become an 'issue' in the US and exported. I also doubt they would describe themselves as "left-wing feminists". That language is incorrect at best and inflammatory at worst. In 2014, Time magazine declared trans rights as "America's next civil rights frontier" [1]. For Women Scotland was formed in 2018 [2]. (Just looked at your comment history. Just, wow... is the trans issue the only one you care about?) [1] https://time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/ https://time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/ [2] https://forwomen.scot/about/ https://forwomen.scot/about/
  - aaaja 1y ago
    For Women Scotland wasn't the start of the opposition to gender identity policy in the UK. It was founded, by four women who met on Mumsnet, specifically to address policy in Scotland. Feminist women opposed to the Tory government's plans to introduce "gender self-id" law and similar policy had already started organising by this point. Groups like Woman's Place UK and Fair Play For Women. This had nothing whatsoever to do with religious arguments from the US. There's also significant liberal opposition to all this in the US, again not linked to religion but, like the UK, on the basis of women's rights.
    - louthy 1y ago
      Keep moving those goalposts! Look, you have the right to believe whatever you want, but making every single discussion you have on here about how much you hate trans people is not really something I want to get involved with. Good day.

by louthy 1y ago

ses1984 1y ago

Religion is a factor in Polish politics.

throwaway2037 1y ago
Absolutely. Italy too. I think a better way to phrase it: There are many countries in Europe where a right wing party uses the rise of Islam due to immigrants as a political issue.

ChickeNES 1y ago

Yeah when I went to the UK and tried to view adult content using a prepaid SIM, it was blocked and required verifying that I was an adult, and this was done at the ISP level. And I know for a fact that the UK has much stricter limits on kink and BDSM in adult content as well. What gives with people claiming it's just the US?

louthy 1y ago
> required verifying that I was an adult Log in to your account and toggle the “I want porn” option? It’s annoying, but not onerous. > And I know for a fact that the UK has much stricter limits on kink and BDSM in adult content as well. I know what you’re referring to, but don’t know the full details. I believe it’s around violent porn (rape, etc). We certainly have a “think of the children” brigade. I still think the discourse is significantly more civilised than that of the US, which feels like it’s approaching virtual civil war levels. When these subjects are debated, it's usually in parliament and doesn't turn into some societal ideological divide. I think some of the policies you mention are more artefacts of the politicians not understanding the technological future we’re in, rather than ideology. Many of them think they can make the internet a safe space for kids through policy. It’s naive, for sure, but usually not dogmatic. > What gives with people claiming it's just the US? It’s not just the US, but when the people standing outside of UK abortion clinics harassing women are funded by US ‘pro life’ religious groups then you know there’s a problem. Puritanism is a US export. The vitriolic political divisions in the US, which leads to all sorts of fringe issues becoming mainstream (trans rights, for example), is leaking out into the rest of the western democracies, poisoning the debate everywhere. The Visa issue is just one more of these puritanical US exports.
- pqtyw 1y ago
  > It’s annoying, but not onerous. So government regulating stuff like that does go against much of the thing you said in the comment above? > doesn't turn into some societal ideological divide. When governments try to introduce mass surveillance of personal communications to "protect the children" liek ChatControl maybe it should turn into one. Instead of everyone just handwaving and ignoring it...
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - louthy 1y ago
    >> It’s annoying, but not onerous. > So government regulating stuff like that does go against much of the thing you said in the comment above? It isn't law. But even if it was, that doesn't contradict what I am talking about. I'm talking about the export of puritanism. If you think having to turn the porn button from 'off' to 'on' in your phone contract's options is the same, then I don't know what to say. > When governments try to introduce mass surveillance of personal communications to "protect the children" liek ChatControl maybe it should turn into one. Yeah maybe, but that's not the topic of conversation here. The topic was about puritanical beliefs in the US and how its export affects the world (like the Visa issue).

aaaja 1y ago

> trans rights. These are entirely imported issues from US religious hangups. No, in the UK it was left-wing feminists who led the opposition to gender identity policies long before any conservatives got involved, on the basis of this being harmful to women's rights. Just look at the recent For Women Scotland win in the Supreme Court, it's nothing to do with US religious groups at all, and everything to do with protecting sex-based rights and sexual orientation in law.

louthy 1y ago
That was waaaay after it had become an 'issue' in the US and exported. I also doubt they would describe themselves as "left-wing feminists". That language is incorrect at best and inflammatory at worst. In 2014, Time magazine declared trans rights as "America's next civil rights frontier" [1]. For Women Scotland was formed in 2018 [2]. (Just looked at your comment history. Just, wow... is the trans issue the only one you care about?) [1] https://time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/ https://time.com/135480/transgender-tipping-point/ [2] https://forwomen.scot/about/ https://forwomen.scot/about/
- aaaja 1y ago
  For Women Scotland wasn't the start of the opposition to gender identity policy in the UK. It was founded, by four women who met on Mumsnet, specifically to address policy in Scotland. Feminist women opposed to the Tory government's plans to introduce "gender self-id" law and similar policy had already started organising by this point. Groups like Woman's Place UK and Fair Play For Women. This had nothing whatsoever to do with religious arguments from the US. There's also significant liberal opposition to all this in the US, again not linked to religion but, like the UK, on the basis of women's rights.
  - louthy 1y ago
    Keep moving those goalposts! Look, you have the right to believe whatever you want, but making every single discussion you have on here about how much you hate trans people is not really something I want to get involved with. Good day.