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This is interesting to me because usually the attitude on this forum is that emotions get in the way of rational behavior and thought. Of course we're all diffe

This is interesting to me because usually the attitude on this forum is that emotions get in the way of rational behavior and thought. Of course we're all different people but I've noticed that trend. The more Spock, the better, at least in technical fields and debate. Yet that goes away as soon as it becomes time to defend Linus Torvalds. Then it's "actually his emotional outbursts are rational and necessary." I hate to say it but I've always wondered how different the attitude towards Linus would be if everything about him and his history was the same, except, he was a woman. If your gut reaction is to defend him because he's so clearly a once in a generation engineer and very smart, remember, the even more experienced and wise version of him has disavowed this earlier, emotional outburst version of him: https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible?

_101 1y ago
I’d defend the hell out of Linus as a woman.
- grosswait 1y ago
  Seconded. Makes no difference
  - komali2 1y ago
    Well great, you two are good people. I recommend searching through the mailing list and forums for when Sarah (now Sage) Sharp was recommending a code of conduct and pushing back on people for being brutes. Many were opining along the lines of Sharp was just a girl that couldn't take the heat, was trying to make the FOSS world all fluffy rainbows etc. Strong evidence that girl Linus wouldn't haven't had the same amount of success and his emotional outbursts would have been seen very differently by the community, despite us three staunch defenders. Linus' whole come to Jesus and apology was kicked off by that and the code of conduct saga, which was predicated on the fact that 98% of kernel developers were men. I think we can agree it'd be naive, despite us three not being misogynists, to believe that the community wouldn't construe girl Linus' outbursts as hysterical?
    - rmunn 1y ago
      The two are not comparable behaviors, though. Sarah was doing the opposite of Linus's (mostly former) communication style. She was pushing for a "let's all get along" style, and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style". And you're using that as evidence for an assertion that if a woman in Linus's position was using a "tough love" communication style, she would have gotten pushback from the kernel community. I just don't believe that the evidence supports your argument.
      - komali2 1y ago
        > and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style". Yes, because that was what was selected for, a toxic masculine form of communication. My point was I believe these emotional outbursts wouldn't have been treated as tough love if Linus had been a woman, they would have been perceived as hysteria, because the community had selected for a 98% male environment of men losing control of their anger at each other. Now Linus has changed, and so has the community's communication style, and so too has the demographics of the contributors. People of all stripes that were turned out by the old brutish, uncontrolled way of communicating are coming back, and the project is much better for it. Maybe it's unrelated but this new era of Linux, where the project has a code of conduct, is also the era of record high market share of Linux based desktop operating systems.
        inemesitaffia 1y ago
        The market share numbers you read are sus. They are also significantly mostly Chromebooks, Steam Decks and TV's. Also there's nothing wrong with masculinity of any form.
        exe34 1y ago
        Could you mention a few of these "form"s?
- podunkPDX 1y ago
  My best mentors in the tech field (software QA, sysadmin) have almost all been women.
glenstein 1y ago
>Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible? Great point and a great link. For someone not as fully immersed in the context of this history of Linus outbursts, I found this comment to be the most clarifying and important in the thread. He's essentially being celebrated for behavior that, as you noted, he himself has agreed is indefensible. Just quoting from your link: >This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for. Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. >I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry. >The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely. >I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Impressively introspective, at least compared to the comments that are the topic of this thread. Fascinating how many people think they're taking Linus' side are taking a side that he wants nothing to do with.

_101 1y ago

I’d defend the hell out of Linus as a woman.

grosswait 1y ago
Seconded. Makes no difference
- komali2 1y ago
  Well great, you two are good people. I recommend searching through the mailing list and forums for when Sarah (now Sage) Sharp was recommending a code of conduct and pushing back on people for being brutes. Many were opining along the lines of Sharp was just a girl that couldn't take the heat, was trying to make the FOSS world all fluffy rainbows etc. Strong evidence that girl Linus wouldn't haven't had the same amount of success and his emotional outbursts would have been seen very differently by the community, despite us three staunch defenders. Linus' whole come to Jesus and apology was kicked off by that and the code of conduct saga, which was predicated on the fact that 98% of kernel developers were men. I think we can agree it'd be naive, despite us three not being misogynists, to believe that the community wouldn't construe girl Linus' outbursts as hysterical?
  - rmunn 1y ago
    The two are not comparable behaviors, though. Sarah was doing the opposite of Linus's (mostly former) communication style. She was pushing for a "let's all get along" style, and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style". And you're using that as evidence for an assertion that if a woman in Linus's position was using a "tough love" communication style, she would have gotten pushback from the kernel community. I just don't believe that the evidence supports your argument.
    - komali2 1y ago
      > and got pushback for that from the Linux kernel community who said "We don't need our hands held and our feelings massaged, we're fine with a 'tough love' communication style". Yes, because that was what was selected for, a toxic masculine form of communication. My point was I believe these emotional outbursts wouldn't have been treated as tough love if Linus had been a woman, they would have been perceived as hysteria, because the community had selected for a 98% male environment of men losing control of their anger at each other. Now Linus has changed, and so has the community's communication style, and so too has the demographics of the contributors. People of all stripes that were turned out by the old brutish, uncontrolled way of communicating are coming back, and the project is much better for it. Maybe it's unrelated but this new era of Linux, where the project has a code of conduct, is also the era of record high market share of Linux based desktop operating systems.
      - inemesitaffia 1y ago
        The market share numbers you read are sus. They are also significantly mostly Chromebooks, Steam Decks and TV's. Also there's nothing wrong with masculinity of any form.
        exe34 1y ago
        Could you mention a few of these "form"s?
podunkPDX 1y ago
My best mentors in the tech field (software QA, sysadmin) have almost all been women.

glenstein 1y ago

>Why defend behavior that he himself has agreed is indefensible? Great point and a great link. For someone not as fully immersed in the context of this history of Linus outbursts, I found this comment to be the most clarifying and important in the thread. He's essentially being celebrated for behavior that, as you noted, he himself has agreed is indefensible. Just quoting from your link: >This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for. Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. >I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry. >The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely. >I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately. Impressively introspective, at least compared to the comments that are the topic of this thread. Fascinating how many people think they're taking Linus' side are taking a side that he wants nothing to do with.