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> If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. In my original comment I said this: “I would have de

> If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” …and I stand by that wholeheartedly. I get that you are trying to justify (likely your own) education here, but what you characterize as obvious simply does not jive with my experience. My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. Your CS degree will have about as much functional longevity considering how fast things are moving nowadays too. You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Perhaps you are in a position now or will be in the future and you can use your own logic in your hiring criteria. I hope it works for you. My logic was certainly successful for me.

wakawaka28 1y ago
>In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught individual. Unless you are assuming identical skill or knowledge as if the self-taught guy had more experience or something to make up for not having a degree (thus not identical in the straightforward way). > My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. I very much doubt that. Software engineering and even hardware resemble the stuff that existed 50 years ago. Some of the same languages are still in use. When there are new innovations, they are rarely reinventing the way we do things in such a drastic way. Your background knowledge will help you learn new things easier. >You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Ironically I am doing advanced work in the same languages I learned first in university, 20 years ago. There are some innovations I've had to keep up with of course, but I think my education served me very well. Could I have done it without going to college? Maybe, but it's doubtful because college is literally taking years off of full-time employment to dedicate yourself to study. Would anyone have given me a chance and suffered my blunders as I tried to learn on the job? I doubt it, even though I know people who have made it without a degree. In this market, I have to say that the bar for anyone not having an appropriate degree is high. I'm certainly not giving preference to people with no degree. At best I would consider expect them to have to compensate for not doing what everyone else does.
- kcplate 1y ago
  > Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught I’d say it’s the opposite. Self-taught folks I know and have hired started their careers earlier than 22 and have had more practical, “actual” experience than their university graduate counterparts at the same age. Also, a university grad with a CS bachelor degree is not going to have anywhere near 4+ years of more field work unless they have been in school for 6 years and have moved slower through the program. As I said, “generally equivalent in all other aspects of the role” sort of assumes equal knowledge or experience anyway. My distinction is more around the tendency of self-taught towards creativity and inventiveness in problem solving outside of learned patterns from their education. They don’t rely on those crutches We will obviously never agree on this-your theory and arguments simply don’t jive with my lived experience. Good luck.
  - wakawaka28 1y ago
    Yes we obviously just won't agree on this but I will just state some final points. You are assuming an awful lot of things about self-taught people that simply are not safe to assume, while assuming that fresh CS grads don't have any field experience. I am only assuming the default for CS grads -- that they actually studied relevant material for 4 years. Many people who go to university also do part-time jobs, internships, and extracurricular projects in their field. I certainly did a lot on my own time on top of the years of classroom work. This whole discussion is fraught with problems. I posit that for those people who feel that they need to sell the fact they have no education, they also lack sufficient experience to be marketable. Certainly, for people with little experience, the person with a degree is objectively more credible than the person without. There may be some self-taught individuals who are amazing in some way, but I think the only reason you ever meet these people to begin with is because the less interesting ones get filtered out. In other words, if you are looking for guidance, not going to university is a bad idea. If the bias against education picks up steam, then you might do even better to go to university then pretend to be self-taught after you have a bit of experience lol. As absurd as that sounds, it jives with what you and the article are claiming.
    - 1y ago

wakawaka28 1y ago

>In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught individual. Unless you are assuming identical skill or knowledge as if the self-taught guy had more experience or something to make up for not having a degree (thus not identical in the straightforward way). > My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. I very much doubt that. Software engineering and even hardware resemble the stuff that existed 50 years ago. Some of the same languages are still in use. When there are new innovations, they are rarely reinventing the way we do things in such a drastic way. Your background knowledge will help you learn new things easier. >You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Ironically I am doing advanced work in the same languages I learned first in university, 20 years ago. There are some innovations I've had to keep up with of course, but I think my education served me very well. Could I have done it without going to college? Maybe, but it's doubtful because college is literally taking years off of full-time employment to dedicate yourself to study. Would anyone have given me a chance and suffered my blunders as I tried to learn on the job? I doubt it, even though I know people who have made it without a degree. In this market, I have to say that the bar for anyone not having an appropriate degree is high. I'm certainly not giving preference to people with no degree. At best I would consider expect them to have to compensate for not doing what everyone else does.

kcplate 1y ago
> Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught I’d say it’s the opposite. Self-taught folks I know and have hired started their careers earlier than 22 and have had more practical, “actual” experience than their university graduate counterparts at the same age. Also, a university grad with a CS bachelor degree is not going to have anywhere near 4+ years of more field work unless they have been in school for 6 years and have moved slower through the program. As I said, “generally equivalent in all other aspects of the role” sort of assumes equal knowledge or experience anyway. My distinction is more around the tendency of self-taught towards creativity and inventiveness in problem solving outside of learned patterns from their education. They don’t rely on those crutches We will obviously never agree on this-your theory and arguments simply don’t jive with my lived experience. Good luck.
- wakawaka28 1y ago
  Yes we obviously just won't agree on this but I will just state some final points. You are assuming an awful lot of things about self-taught people that simply are not safe to assume, while assuming that fresh CS grads don't have any field experience. I am only assuming the default for CS grads -- that they actually studied relevant material for 4 years. Many people who go to university also do part-time jobs, internships, and extracurricular projects in their field. I certainly did a lot on my own time on top of the years of classroom work. This whole discussion is fraught with problems. I posit that for those people who feel that they need to sell the fact they have no education, they also lack sufficient experience to be marketable. Certainly, for people with little experience, the person with a degree is objectively more credible than the person without. There may be some self-taught individuals who are amazing in some way, but I think the only reason you ever meet these people to begin with is because the less interesting ones get filtered out. In other words, if you are looking for guidance, not going to university is a bad idea. If the bias against education picks up steam, then you might do even better to go to university then pretend to be self-taught after you have a bit of experience lol. As absurd as that sounds, it jives with what you and the article are claiming.
  - 1y ago