5 ms·

EU is going to add popups to all the LLMs like they did all the websites. :(

lofaszvanitt 1y ago
No popup is required, just every lobotomized idiot copies what the big players do.... Oh ma dey have popups. We need dem too! Haha, we happy!
- zdragnar 1y ago
  Actually, it's because marketing departments rely heavily on tracking cookies and pixels to be their job, as their job is measured on things like conversations and understanding how effective their ad spend is. The regulations came along, but nobody told marketing how to do their job without the cookies, so every business site keeps doing the same thing they were doing, but with a cookie banner that is hopefully obtrusive enough that users just click through it.
  - tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
    No it's because I'll get fined by some bureaucrat who has never run a business in his life if I don't put a pointless popup on my stupid-simple shopify store.
    - jungturk 1y ago
      Is it an option for your simple store to not collect data about subjects without their consent? Seems like an easy win. Your choice to use frameworks subsidized by surveillance capitalism doesn't need to preclude my ability to agree to participate does it? Maybe a handy notification when I visit your store asking if I agree to participate would be a happy compromise?
      - tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
        You know it's possible to make good reasoned points without cramming in "<psuedo-marxist buzzword> capitalism" into a sentence for absolutely no reason. All I want is to not be forced to irritate my customers about something that nobody cares about. It doesn't have to be complicated. It is how the internet was for all of its existence until a few years ago.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        jungturk 1y ago
        There's nothing marxist(?) about the industry of surveillance capitalism. Its just a regular segment of data-driven advertising and marketing optimization that instruments our technology and observes user behavior (typically without users' knowledge or consent). There's no value judgement there - its literally just surveillance and capitalism put together to achieve some goals - usually advertising optimization but sometimes not. And it happens to subsidize the tools you'd like to you use. Whether you as a simple shopkeeper are aware of that or not doesn't change the equation or make anything buzzwordy.
        tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
        I understand all of that. Everyone understands this. Nobody believes that websites aren't collecting our information. None of that means that I should be FORCED to annoy my users with something that none of them read and none of them want to see. It's like forcing me to click a "Accept" button every time I start my car saying I understand that my car is going to be recorded by the dash cams of other cars and traffic towers, probably there are cameras in billboards that will see me, oh and my phone's GPS is watching me, etc. etc. Nobody gives a shit.
    - cultureswitch 1y ago
      No need for a cookie banner if you don't collect data without consent. Every modern browser supports APIs that answer that question without pestering the user with a cookie banner.
    - zdragnar 1y ago
      > shopify store. There you go. Shopify does a bunch of analytics gathering for you. Whether you choose to use it or not, the decision was made by someone who thought it would be a value add and now you need a banner.
      - tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
        The decision to force me to add the banner was made by EU legislators, not shopify.
  - conradludgate 1y ago
    It's important to point out that it's actually not at all about cookies. It's tracking by using information stored on the user's device in general that needs to have consent. You could use localStorage for the purposes of tracking and it still needs to have a popup/banner. An authentication cookie does not need a cookie banner, but if you issue lots of network requests for tracking and monitor server logs, that does now need a cookie banner. If you don't store anything, but use fingerprinting, that is not covered by the law but could be covered by GDPR afaiu
gond 1y ago
No, the EU did not do that. Companies did that and thoughtless website owners, small and large, who decided that it is better to collect arbitrary data, even if they have no capacity to convert it into information. The solution to get rid of cookie banners, as it was intended, is super simple: only use cookies if absolutely necessary. It was and is a blatant misuse. The website owners all have a choice: shift the responsibility from themselves to the users and bugger them with endless pop ups, collect the data and don’t give a shit about user experience. Or, just don’t use cookies for a change. And look which decision they all made. A few notable examples do exist: https://fabiensanglard.net/ https://fabiensanglard.net/ No popups, no banner, nothing. He just don’t collect anything, thus, no need for a cookie banner. The mistake the EU made was to not foresee the madness used to make these decisions. I’ll give you that it was an ugly, ugly outcome. :(
- wskinner 1y ago
  > The mistake the EU made was to not foresee the madness used to make these decisions. It's not madness, it's a totally predictable response, and all web users pay the price for the EC's lack of foresight every day. That they didn't foresee it should cause us to question their ability to foresee the downstream effects of all their other planned regulations.
  - gond 1y ago
    Interesting framing. If you continue this line of thought, it will end up in a philosophical argument about what kind of image of humanity one has. So your solution would be to always expect everybody to be the worst version of themselves? In that case, that will make for some quite restrictive laws, I guess.
    - wskinner 1y ago
      People are generally responsive to incentives. In this case, the GDPR required: 1. Consent to be freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous and as easy to withdraw as to give 2. High penalties for failure to comply (€20 million or 4 % of worldwide annual turnover, whichever is higher) Compliance is tricky and mistakes are costly. A pop-up banner is the easiest off-the-shelf solution, and most site operators care about focusing on their actual business rather than compliance, so it's not surprising that they took this easy path. If your model of the world or "image of humanity" can't predict an outcome like this, then maybe it's wrong.
baby 1y ago
I hate these popups so much, the fact that they havent corrected any of this bs shows how slow these people are to move
- Ylpertnodi 1y ago
  Who are 'they', and 'these people'? Nb I haven't had a pop up for years. Perhaps it could be you that is slow. Do you ad-blocking? https://www.joindns4.eu/for-public https://www.joindns4.eu/for-public
  - baby 1y ago
    you have to be in europe to understand my comment
- tim333 1y ago
  The "I still don't care about cookies" extension works quite well. Auto-clicks accept and closes the window in approx half a second.
user5534762135 1y ago
The internet is riddled with popups and attention grabbing dark patterns, but the only one that's a problem is the one that actually lets you opt out of being tracked to death?
- ryukoposting 1y ago
  ...yes? There are countless ways it could have been implemented that would have been more effective, and less irritating for billions of people. Force companies to respect the DNT header. Ta-daa, done. But that wouldn't have been profitable, so instead let's cook up a cottage industry of increasingly obnoxious consent banners.

No popup is required, just every lobotomized idiot copies what the big players do.... Oh ma dey have popups. We need dem too! Haha, we happy!

zdragnar 1y ago
Actually, it's because marketing departments rely heavily on tracking cookies and pixels to be their job, as their job is measured on things like conversations and understanding how effective their ad spend is. The regulations came along, but nobody told marketing how to do their job without the cookies, so every business site keeps doing the same thing they were doing, but with a cookie banner that is hopefully obtrusive enough that users just click through it.
- tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
  No it's because I'll get fined by some bureaucrat who has never run a business in his life if I don't put a pointless popup on my stupid-simple shopify store.
  - jungturk 1y ago
    Is it an option for your simple store to not collect data about subjects without their consent? Seems like an easy win. Your choice to use frameworks subsidized by surveillance capitalism doesn't need to preclude my ability to agree to participate does it? Maybe a handy notification when I visit your store asking if I agree to participate would be a happy compromise?
    - tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
      You know it's possible to make good reasoned points without cramming in "<psuedo-marxist buzzword> capitalism" into a sentence for absolutely no reason. All I want is to not be forced to irritate my customers about something that nobody cares about. It doesn't have to be complicated. It is how the internet was for all of its existence until a few years ago.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - jungturk 1y ago
        There's nothing marxist(?) about the industry of surveillance capitalism. Its just a regular segment of data-driven advertising and marketing optimization that instruments our technology and observes user behavior (typically without users' knowledge or consent). There's no value judgement there - its literally just surveillance and capitalism put together to achieve some goals - usually advertising optimization but sometimes not. And it happens to subsidize the tools you'd like to you use. Whether you as a simple shopkeeper are aware of that or not doesn't change the equation or make anything buzzwordy.
        tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
        I understand all of that. Everyone understands this. Nobody believes that websites aren't collecting our information. None of that means that I should be FORCED to annoy my users with something that none of them read and none of them want to see. It's like forcing me to click a "Accept" button every time I start my car saying I understand that my car is going to be recorded by the dash cams of other cars and traffic towers, probably there are cameras in billboards that will see me, oh and my phone's GPS is watching me, etc. etc. Nobody gives a shit.
  - cultureswitch 1y ago
    No need for a cookie banner if you don't collect data without consent. Every modern browser supports APIs that answer that question without pestering the user with a cookie banner.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
    > shopify store. There you go. Shopify does a bunch of analytics gathering for you. Whether you choose to use it or not, the decision was made by someone who thought it would be a value add and now you need a banner.
    - tjwebbnorfolk 1y ago
      The decision to force me to add the banner was made by EU legislators, not shopify.
- conradludgate 1y ago
  It's important to point out that it's actually not at all about cookies. It's tracking by using information stored on the user's device in general that needs to have consent. You could use localStorage for the purposes of tracking and it still needs to have a popup/banner. An authentication cookie does not need a cookie banner, but if you issue lots of network requests for tracking and monitor server logs, that does now need a cookie banner. If you don't store anything, but use fingerprinting, that is not covered by the law but could be covered by GDPR afaiu

gond 1y ago

No, the EU did not do that. Companies did that and thoughtless website owners, small and large, who decided that it is better to collect arbitrary data, even if they have no capacity to convert it into information. The solution to get rid of cookie banners, as it was intended, is super simple: only use cookies if absolutely necessary. It was and is a blatant misuse. The website owners all have a choice: shift the responsibility from themselves to the users and bugger them with endless pop ups, collect the data and don’t give a shit about user experience. Or, just don’t use cookies for a change. And look which decision they all made. A few notable examples do exist: https://fabiensanglard.net/ https://fabiensanglard.net/ No popups, no banner, nothing. He just don’t collect anything, thus, no need for a cookie banner. The mistake the EU made was to not foresee the madness used to make these decisions. I’ll give you that it was an ugly, ugly outcome. :(

wskinner 1y ago
> The mistake the EU made was to not foresee the madness used to make these decisions. It's not madness, it's a totally predictable response, and all web users pay the price for the EC's lack of foresight every day. That they didn't foresee it should cause us to question their ability to foresee the downstream effects of all their other planned regulations.
- gond 1y ago
  Interesting framing. If you continue this line of thought, it will end up in a philosophical argument about what kind of image of humanity one has. So your solution would be to always expect everybody to be the worst version of themselves? In that case, that will make for some quite restrictive laws, I guess.
  - wskinner 1y ago
    People are generally responsive to incentives. In this case, the GDPR required: 1. Consent to be freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous and as easy to withdraw as to give 2. High penalties for failure to comply (€20 million or 4 % of worldwide annual turnover, whichever is higher) Compliance is tricky and mistakes are costly. A pop-up banner is the easiest off-the-shelf solution, and most site operators care about focusing on their actual business rather than compliance, so it's not surprising that they took this easy path. If your model of the world or "image of humanity" can't predict an outcome like this, then maybe it's wrong.

baby 1y ago

I hate these popups so much, the fact that they havent corrected any of this bs shows how slow these people are to move

Ylpertnodi 1y ago
Who are 'they', and 'these people'? Nb I haven't had a pop up for years. Perhaps it could be you that is slow. Do you ad-blocking? https://www.joindns4.eu/for-public https://www.joindns4.eu/for-public
- baby 1y ago
  you have to be in europe to understand my comment
tim333 1y ago
The "I still don't care about cookies" extension works quite well. Auto-clicks accept and closes the window in approx half a second.

user5534762135 1y ago

The internet is riddled with popups and attention grabbing dark patterns, but the only one that's a problem is the one that actually lets you opt out of being tracked to death?

ryukoposting 1y ago
...yes? There are countless ways it could have been implemented that would have been more effective, and less irritating for billions of people. Force companies to respect the DNT header. Ta-daa, done. But that wouldn't have been profitable, so instead let's cook up a cottage industry of increasingly obnoxious consent banners.