4 ms·

I am genuinely curious who can actually threaten Visa (I do not think it is Valve). Amazon, Walmart, Target and then increasingly unsure.

rib3ye 1y ago
Likely Apple currently has the deepest finance industry roots.
- xyst 1y ago
  If you consider the minutiae of percentage apple shaves off transactions with Apple Pay. Sure. But they have partnered with GS and MC. Far from any sort of "finance industry roots". They essentially offer a fancy UI on top of GS products and other traditional banks. Apple Cash -> Green Dot or some other no name bank Apple Card -> Goldman Sachs Apple Pay -> some very small percentage of the bank and network fees charged to merchants
- Razengan 1y ago
  Honestly, with how prevalent iPhones and Androids are today, specially among newer humans, if Apple and Google made a payment system that just transferred money between iPhone/Android, it could practically replace cash & cards for a lot of people. In some countries the vast majority of payments are done via phone apps for national payment systems already, bypassing Visa/Mastercard etc. entirely. Even kids pay for candy by phone.
- AdieuToLogic 1y ago
  >> I am genuinely curious who can actually threaten Visa (I do not think it is Valve). > Likely Apple currently has the deepest finance industry roots. Apple used a very large bank headquartered in the US for its credit card processing as of about ten years ago. Given that the cost of change is significant once these processes are put in place, it is likely this remains the case. Note that this is not the same as what Apple Pay supports.
carlosjobim 1y ago
Mastercard?
kabdib 1y ago
IBM was not able to. Story from a friend-who-claimed-to-be-there: In days of yore, Visa did processing on IBM iron. The iron in question took a while to boot, and time is very definitely money to Visa and they wanted to speed up reboots (e.g., after a crash). Saving seconds = $$$. Visa to IBM: "Please give us the source code for the <boot path stuff>, it's costing us money." IBM: LOL Visa to some big banks: "Please tell IBM to give us the source code for this, it's costing you money." IBM, a little later: "Here's a tape. Need any help?"
- tkj922 1y ago
  Factually correct, I in fact even was that tape at the time
AdieuToLogic 1y ago
> I am genuinely curious who can actually threaten Visa (I do not think it is Valve). Visa is a clearing house whose members are banks. Think of it like a payment router between issuers (banks) and processors (banks). Only sponsored organizations can directly use the "Visa rails", where "sponsor" is defined as a bank, a bank subsidiary, or an entity previously sponsored by one of the other two. This is also the case for MasterCard and Discover. "Traditional" American Express is different though. > Amazon, Walmart, Target and then increasingly unsure. Those merchants use banks or one of their subsidiaries for processing credit card transactions. Most large merchants do as well in order to minimize their discount rate as well as other transaction fees. Smaller merchants often use ISO's or VAR's for business specific reason, knowing both ultimately transact with a bank or one of a bank's subsidiaries.
- manwe150 1y ago
  I thought Venmo was trying the most with their card offers, as well as PayPal, Cash, Google Pay and several others too
  - AdieuToLogic 1y ago
    > I thought Venmo was trying the most with their card offers, as well as PayPal, Cash, Google Pay and several others too I know at least two of the above used to use a specific US bank for the credit card transactions backing their payment services. For others, if service usage requires a verified credit card or debit card backed by a credit card network, they too use a processor owned/operated by a bank, bank subsidiary, or an entity sponsored by same. EDIT: For payment services which do not require a credit card or debit card backed by a credit card network, they almost certainly use the ACH[0] network. This is a more intimate financial relationship and best used with a dedicated bank account not linked to any others, as fund transfers can be bidirectional. 0 - https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/ach-vs-check/ https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/ach-vs-check/
    - pests 1y ago
      Cashapp cards for me, for example, are backed by Sutton Bank Ltd out of Chicago.
loeg 1y ago
Only the USG.
fendy3002 1y ago
Though unpopular, I'd say China is able to
- lmz 1y ago
  1) They already have that (Unionpay). 2) I don't think they are less prone to censoring things.
  - mango7283 1y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056nle2drno https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056nle2drno China would never! /s
    - lmz 1y ago
      There's also the gaming time limits[1] and the proposed(?) spending limit[2]. Probably a good thing, if you ask me... [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58384457 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58384457 [2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules-online-game-management-2023-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules...
ijk 1y ago
Other payment processors, mostly. So other credit card companies (e.g. JCB [1]), government run payment services like Pix in Brazil [2], theoretically crypto, etc. [1] as a random example: https://archive.kyivpost.com/technology/japanese-payment-system-jcb-wants-to-enter-ukraine-challenge-visa-mastercard.html https://archive.kyivpost.com/technology/japanese-payment-sys... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system)
TkTech 1y ago
Any coalition of banks can. Replacing Visa is a daunting task, but rolling out PoS support and the technical challenges are peanuts compared to actually getting banks onboard. Visa itself was started by a single bank, and Mastercard was started by a coalition of banks. They can do it again. Interac[1] is Canada's debit system, originally created as a non-profit by our largest banks way back in '84, and these days is supported everywhere. The large banks are already used to bullying their way through political or bureaucratic challenges, and a single Canadian bank typically has trillion(s) in managed assets - they _can_ bully Visa. Zelle[2] (2016) is a limited (etransfer only) clone for the American market, UPI (2016) in India, UnionPay (2002) in China, carte Bleue (1967) in France, etc etc. What's missing is cooperation between national systems like these, as well as lending as they typically only do debit instead of credit. Any cooperation between these systems would likely get spun out as a separate entity, which would eventually just turn into a new Visa or Mastercard - but 3 choices is better than 2. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Zelle won't become that. Zelle was designed to offload liability onto consumers using the carrot of instant transfers.
zhivota 1y ago
It will be an ID number based payment service built on top of FedNow. In other countries similar services are used with QR codes to do easy payments.
nottorp 1y ago
> Amazon, Walmart, Target Those are all US companies so subject to the same puritan pressures. Their cards would still be good for buying ultra violent games but not sex games...
- jabroni_salad 1y ago
  Walmart was very supportive of fedNow for the express purpose of removing MasterCard from cashless purchases. And for a long time the only way to pay by phone was to allow them to debit via ACH. out of all of them they get it the most. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012866 And really, even banking isn't a safe harbor. I am pretty sure they were at the forefront of the rise in neobanks and products like green dot cards.

rib3ye 1y ago

Likely Apple currently has the deepest finance industry roots.

xyst 1y ago
If you consider the minutiae of percentage apple shaves off transactions with Apple Pay. Sure. But they have partnered with GS and MC. Far from any sort of "finance industry roots". They essentially offer a fancy UI on top of GS products and other traditional banks. Apple Cash -> Green Dot or some other no name bank Apple Card -> Goldman Sachs Apple Pay -> some very small percentage of the bank and network fees charged to merchants
Razengan 1y ago
Honestly, with how prevalent iPhones and Androids are today, specially among newer humans, if Apple and Google made a payment system that just transferred money between iPhone/Android, it could practically replace cash & cards for a lot of people. In some countries the vast majority of payments are done via phone apps for national payment systems already, bypassing Visa/Mastercard etc. entirely. Even kids pay for candy by phone.
AdieuToLogic 1y ago
>> I am genuinely curious who can actually threaten Visa (I do not think it is Valve). > Likely Apple currently has the deepest finance industry roots. Apple used a very large bank headquartered in the US for its credit card processing as of about ten years ago. Given that the cost of change is significant once these processes are put in place, it is likely this remains the case. Note that this is not the same as what Apple Pay supports.

carlosjobim 1y ago

Mastercard?

kabdib 1y ago

IBM was not able to. Story from a friend-who-claimed-to-be-there: In days of yore, Visa did processing on IBM iron. The iron in question took a while to boot, and time is very definitely money to Visa and they wanted to speed up reboots (e.g., after a crash). Saving seconds = $$$. Visa to IBM: "Please give us the source code for the <boot path stuff>, it's costing us money." IBM: LOL Visa to some big banks: "Please tell IBM to give us the source code for this, it's costing you money." IBM, a little later: "Here's a tape. Need any help?"

tkj922 1y ago
Factually correct, I in fact even was that tape at the time

AdieuToLogic 1y ago

> I am genuinely curious who can actually threaten Visa (I do not think it is Valve). Visa is a clearing house whose members are banks. Think of it like a payment router between issuers (banks) and processors (banks). Only sponsored organizations can directly use the "Visa rails", where "sponsor" is defined as a bank, a bank subsidiary, or an entity previously sponsored by one of the other two. This is also the case for MasterCard and Discover. "Traditional" American Express is different though. > Amazon, Walmart, Target and then increasingly unsure. Those merchants use banks or one of their subsidiaries for processing credit card transactions. Most large merchants do as well in order to minimize their discount rate as well as other transaction fees. Smaller merchants often use ISO's or VAR's for business specific reason, knowing both ultimately transact with a bank or one of a bank's subsidiaries.

manwe150 1y ago
I thought Venmo was trying the most with their card offers, as well as PayPal, Cash, Google Pay and several others too
- AdieuToLogic 1y ago
  > I thought Venmo was trying the most with their card offers, as well as PayPal, Cash, Google Pay and several others too I know at least two of the above used to use a specific US bank for the credit card transactions backing their payment services. For others, if service usage requires a verified credit card or debit card backed by a credit card network, they too use a processor owned/operated by a bank, bank subsidiary, or an entity sponsored by same. EDIT: For payment services which do not require a credit card or debit card backed by a credit card network, they almost certainly use the ACH[0] network. This is a more intimate financial relationship and best used with a dedicated bank account not linked to any others, as fund transfers can be bidirectional. 0 - https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/ach-vs-check/ https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/ach-vs-check/
  - pests 1y ago
    Cashapp cards for me, for example, are backed by Sutton Bank Ltd out of Chicago.

loeg 1y ago

Only the USG.

fendy3002 1y ago

Though unpopular, I'd say China is able to

lmz 1y ago
1) They already have that (Unionpay). 2) I don't think they are less prone to censoring things.
- mango7283 1y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056nle2drno https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c056nle2drno China would never! /s
  - lmz 1y ago
    There's also the gaming time limits[1] and the proposed(?) spending limit[2]. Probably a good thing, if you ask me... [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58384457 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58384457 [2]: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules-online-game-management-2023-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules...

ijk 1y ago

Other payment processors, mostly. So other credit card companies (e.g. JCB [1]), government run payment services like Pix in Brazil [2], theoretically crypto, etc. [1] as a random example: https://archive.kyivpost.com/technology/japanese-payment-system-jcb-wants-to-enter-ukraine-challenge-visa-mastercard.html https://archive.kyivpost.com/technology/japanese-payment-sys... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pix_(payment_system)

TkTech 1y ago

Any coalition of banks can. Replacing Visa is a daunting task, but rolling out PoS support and the technical challenges are peanuts compared to actually getting banks onboard. Visa itself was started by a single bank, and Mastercard was started by a coalition of banks. They can do it again. Interac[1] is Canada's debit system, originally created as a non-profit by our largest banks way back in '84, and these days is supported everywhere. The large banks are already used to bullying their way through political or bureaucratic challenges, and a single Canadian bank typically has trillion(s) in managed assets - they _can_ bully Visa. Zelle[2] (2016) is a limited (etransfer only) clone for the American market, UPI (2016) in India, UnionPay (2002) in China, carte Bleue (1967) in France, etc etc. What's missing is cooperation between national systems like these, as well as lending as they typically only do debit instead of credit. Any cooperation between these systems would likely get spun out as a separate entity, which would eventually just turn into a new Visa or Mastercard - but 3 choices is better than 2. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interac [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface

FireBeyond 1y ago
Zelle won't become that. Zelle was designed to offload liability onto consumers using the carrot of instant transfers.

zhivota 1y ago

It will be an ID number based payment service built on top of FedNow. In other countries similar services are used with QR codes to do easy payments.

nottorp 1y ago

> Amazon, Walmart, Target Those are all US companies so subject to the same puritan pressures. Their cards would still be good for buying ultra violent games but not sex games...

jabroni_salad 1y ago
Walmart was very supportive of fedNow for the express purpose of removing MasterCard from cashless purchases. And for a long time the only way to pay by phone was to allow them to debit via ACH. out of all of them they get it the most. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012866 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36012866 And really, even banking isn't a safe harbor. I am pretty sure they were at the forefront of the rise in neobanks and products like green dot cards.