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if people from India and China were allowed to naturalize as fast things would spiral out of control. I know it's not a popular thing to say on this forum, but

if people from India and China were allowed to naturalize as fast things would spiral out of control. I know it's not a popular thing to say on this forum, but H1B visas are absolutely a wage control mechanism for US corporations even if that's not the spirit of the law. Note that I'm also an immigrant.

bombcar 1y ago
The H1B “problem” would disappear if companies were required to pay 50% more than the median salary for the position for one.
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  The problem would disappear, but they would disappear to India or one of the other offshoring countries. I however agree that the pay needs to be AT LEAST the median salary for the position to avoid abuse.
  - nebula8804 1y ago
    Tax the American companies that focus their hiring efforts abroad. Just another tariff. They will generate the people they need in this country by lunch time.
    - darth_avocado 1y ago
      Would probably work for some roles, not all. And the tax would be a very big number.
- trhway 1y ago
  Google would be required to pay 900K instead of 600K. You think that would stop Google?
  - scarface_74 1y ago
    Or they would just move some of their development departments to another country. Google doesn’t need to bring developers into the US at all. It still wouldn’t help.
    - trhway 1y ago
      For companies like Google, H1B isn’t about bringing into US, it is just an expensive way to satisfy their US hiring hunger. That difference can be understood by imagining that H1B isn’t foreign devs, instead it is devs grown in a jar by the State Department - Google would buy them the same.
darth_avocado 1y ago
There’s a lot to be said about “spiraling out of control”. You could argue it’s fair for everyone. But you could also argue that a country like China which is as big as Europe gets the same amount of green cards as Luxembourg. You could argue there will be less diversity, but then you’d be arguing that the French and the Italian cultures are very different from each other, but people from NorthEast India are the same as people from South of India culturally and ethnically. Anyway, if we are so concerned about “not letting things go out of control”. A simple solution is also to set those country caps on the H1B program. There can be other solutions and the conversation can be a lot more nuanced but HN is not the forum for it when it comes to the topic of H1B.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
osti 1y ago
"Note that I'm also an immigrant." This sentence doesn't really help your statement, it just makes you a gatekeeper.
- kccqzy 1y ago
  Exactly. In liberal cities I have lived in, it is almost always the earlier immigrants that resent and denigrate the later immigrants. It's pure gatekeeping. Like "I suffered during the immigration process and therefore you have to suffer at least as much as I have, or it isn't fair." Or like "the recent immigrants aren't as hardworking as older ones and they don't deserve immigration."
kccqzy 1y ago
The so-called wage control mechanism is never the intention of H1B. Workers with H1Bs have to meet prevailing wage standards before the H1B is approved: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages I get that there are probably loopholes in the law. But then the solution is to fix the loopholes and tighten enforcement. Give DoL access to IRS data. Improve the definition of prevailing wages. A lot of things can be done to fix H1B so that it behaves like how it's intended.
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  DOL does have the data to determine prevailing wages. In fact the wages reported in the application for H1B is often lower than what the immigrant is getting paid because DOL does not accept bonuses and RSUs and other options as guaranTeed wage. So you could have an H1B petition with $200k but in reality they could be earning $300k+ with bonuses and RSUs.
- bitsage 1y ago
  Paying prevailing wage doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the salary a company would have paid/are paying to American workers in the same role. Three-fifths of h-1b jobs are certified at the two lowest prevailing wage levels and the median age of an h-1b beneficiary is 33 years old.
  - kccqzy 1y ago
    > Paying prevailing wage doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the salary a company would have paid/are paying to American workers in the same role. That's part of the fix I'm proposing. Improve the definition of prevailing wage.
dyauspitr 1y ago
I feel like the situation for US citizens would improve if they were allowed to naturalize. Their wages would go up and companies wouldn’t have the relatively cheaper labor pool to constantly draw from.
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  This is another mistake what people make when describing H1Bs. Yes there are abuses where bad actors abuse the system and undercut the local wages. But a huge portion of the annual H1B allocation goes to people who are not the “cheaper labor pool”. They get paid the same wages AND the companies spend additional money to the order of thousands of dollars to sponsor the visa. Google is not hiring H1Bs on a cheaper rate. They still get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. But I do agree with the theory that allowing a lot of these H1Bs would be a net benefit for the economy. A lot of people who naturalize end up leaving jobs and starting businesses that employ more people. We should be encouraging that, but instead the system actively discourages that.
  - dyauspitr 1y ago
    If they’re not a cheaper labor pool then the only reason companies wouldn’t hire them over citizens is because they are tied to the company. This would also be solved by naturalization. Any iteration of this turns out to be better for US citizens if they’re are naturalized. Not to mention that 50% of all unicorns in the US are started by immigrants, like 60% of those by specifically Indians.
  - luckydata 1y ago
    it's not a mistake because it's what ends up happening. There's serious research on it that everyone seems to want to ignore: https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153
JackYoustra 1y ago
mariel boatlift study found that even with a 7% short-term supply shock to labor concentrated in only miami in only low wage work led to no disruption in either employment or wages: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf lump of labor simply never happens. I know it's fashionable to say 'wage suppression' but wages mostly reflect productivity in competitive AND deregulated markets!

bombcar 1y ago

The H1B “problem” would disappear if companies were required to pay 50% more than the median salary for the position for one.

darth_avocado 1y ago
The problem would disappear, but they would disappear to India or one of the other offshoring countries. I however agree that the pay needs to be AT LEAST the median salary for the position to avoid abuse.
- nebula8804 1y ago
  Tax the American companies that focus their hiring efforts abroad. Just another tariff. They will generate the people they need in this country by lunch time.
  - darth_avocado 1y ago
    Would probably work for some roles, not all. And the tax would be a very big number.
trhway 1y ago
Google would be required to pay 900K instead of 600K. You think that would stop Google?
- scarface_74 1y ago
  Or they would just move some of their development departments to another country. Google doesn’t need to bring developers into the US at all. It still wouldn’t help.
  - trhway 1y ago
    For companies like Google, H1B isn’t about bringing into US, it is just an expensive way to satisfy their US hiring hunger. That difference can be understood by imagining that H1B isn’t foreign devs, instead it is devs grown in a jar by the State Department - Google would buy them the same.

darth_avocado 1y ago

There’s a lot to be said about “spiraling out of control”. You could argue it’s fair for everyone. But you could also argue that a country like China which is as big as Europe gets the same amount of green cards as Luxembourg. You could argue there will be less diversity, but then you’d be arguing that the French and the Italian cultures are very different from each other, but people from NorthEast India are the same as people from South of India culturally and ethnically. Anyway, if we are so concerned about “not letting things go out of control”. A simple solution is also to set those country caps on the H1B program. There can be other solutions and the conversation can be a lot more nuanced but HN is not the forum for it when it comes to the topic of H1B.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

osti 1y ago

"Note that I'm also an immigrant." This sentence doesn't really help your statement, it just makes you a gatekeeper.

kccqzy 1y ago
Exactly. In liberal cities I have lived in, it is almost always the earlier immigrants that resent and denigrate the later immigrants. It's pure gatekeeping. Like "I suffered during the immigration process and therefore you have to suffer at least as much as I have, or it isn't fair." Or like "the recent immigrants aren't as hardworking as older ones and they don't deserve immigration."

kccqzy 1y ago

The so-called wage control mechanism is never the intention of H1B. Workers with H1Bs have to meet prevailing wage standards before the H1B is approved: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/wages I get that there are probably loopholes in the law. But then the solution is to fix the loopholes and tighten enforcement. Give DoL access to IRS data. Improve the definition of prevailing wages. A lot of things can be done to fix H1B so that it behaves like how it's intended.

darth_avocado 1y ago
DOL does have the data to determine prevailing wages. In fact the wages reported in the application for H1B is often lower than what the immigrant is getting paid because DOL does not accept bonuses and RSUs and other options as guaranTeed wage. So you could have an H1B petition with $200k but in reality they could be earning $300k+ with bonuses and RSUs.
bitsage 1y ago
Paying prevailing wage doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the salary a company would have paid/are paying to American workers in the same role. Three-fifths of h-1b jobs are certified at the two lowest prevailing wage levels and the median age of an h-1b beneficiary is 33 years old.
- kccqzy 1y ago
  > Paying prevailing wage doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the salary a company would have paid/are paying to American workers in the same role. That's part of the fix I'm proposing. Improve the definition of prevailing wage.

dyauspitr 1y ago

I feel like the situation for US citizens would improve if they were allowed to naturalize. Their wages would go up and companies wouldn’t have the relatively cheaper labor pool to constantly draw from.

darth_avocado 1y ago
This is another mistake what people make when describing H1Bs. Yes there are abuses where bad actors abuse the system and undercut the local wages. But a huge portion of the annual H1B allocation goes to people who are not the “cheaper labor pool”. They get paid the same wages AND the companies spend additional money to the order of thousands of dollars to sponsor the visa. Google is not hiring H1Bs on a cheaper rate. They still get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. But I do agree with the theory that allowing a lot of these H1Bs would be a net benefit for the economy. A lot of people who naturalize end up leaving jobs and starting businesses that employ more people. We should be encouraging that, but instead the system actively discourages that.
- dyauspitr 1y ago
  If they’re not a cheaper labor pool then the only reason companies wouldn’t hire them over citizens is because they are tied to the company. This would also be solved by naturalization. Any iteration of this turns out to be better for US citizens if they’re are naturalized. Not to mention that 50% of all unicorns in the US are started by immigrants, like 60% of those by specifically Indians.
- luckydata 1y ago
  it's not a mistake because it's what ends up happening. There's serious research on it that everyone seems to want to ignore: https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153

JackYoustra 1y ago

mariel boatlift study found that even with a 7% short-term supply shock to labor concentrated in only miami in only low wage work led to no disruption in either employment or wages: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf lump of labor simply never happens. I know it's fashionable to say 'wage suppression' but wages mostly reflect productivity in competitive AND deregulated markets!