5 ms·

The Israeli "art student" mystery (2002)

109 points by georgecmu 1y ago

telagraphic 1y ago
Check out the Shea Memorandum, see page 53 in the PDF for the detailed short summary of points. https://www.yale64.org/news/shea.pdf https://www.yale64.org/news/shea.pdf
- flumpcakes 1y ago
  I have never seen that before. If I am reading that correctly: it is interesting that Israel was doing the work on US soil, giving the FBI/CIA a heads up about a potential large scale terrorist attack against the US and then the FBI/CIA seemingly do little to stop what eventually becomes 9/11 later that year. The FBI/CIA then obfuscate where their intel came from.
  - neuroelectron 1y ago
    Interesting. I wonder what part of their work required them to shut off parts of the WTC and remove a window.
  - throwawayQuwcy 1y ago
    "Why the Israeli government decided not to share with us all the critical information they had, and the extent of that information, is a subject for the public inquiry. They may have thought some sort of warning prudent in the event their surveillance activities later became a matter of public knowledge. But any energetic Israeli effort to assist the United States in preventing the attacks would not have served their strategic interest, in view of the disastrous effect those attacks were likely to have on the relationships between the United States and the Arab world."
    - dogma1138 1y ago
      Keep in mind that Gerald Shea was a lawyer (DA in California at the time he wrote this) without access to any official information this isn’t an official document, it’s something that a person wrote on their own and submitted it. This is very much bordering on conspiracy theories…
      - throwawayQuwcy 1y ago
        Thanks for the info on Gerald Shea! Though if you'd like to comment on the "Shea Memorandum" / Gerald Shea I think that would be more appropriate on the parent comment? A question was asked, I answered with the relevant quote from the paper, you replied "conspiracy theory" on that specific quote & ad-hominem'ed the author? Calling "conspiracy theory" is not good-faith discussion and employs a number of logical fallacies like appeal to ridicule & poisoning the well. What parts of the "Shea Memorandum" do you think are likely non-factual? The Israeli art students?
        dogma1138 1y ago
        Nothing in that “memorandum” is actually backed by any evidence, it’s the unofficial work of a single individual who neither has had intelligence experience nor access to any intelligence material. It is fan fiction not an official document, hence why it was rejected at its time for the nonsense it is, but I guess the daily stormer is cool these days.
        guiriduro 1y ago
        You did not answer the question. Its irrelevant who Shea is or what you assume about his circumstances, if the evidence discussed is well-sourced. Which reported evidence in the Shea report are you contending is false (or not asserted in contemporaneous sources cited in the document), and why?
        dogma1138 1y ago
        None of the evidence is sourced yet alone well sourced…
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- PicassoCTs 1y ago
  Updated version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of... ?
  - dogma1138 1y ago
    Despite the downvotes not far off…
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- yencabulator 1y ago
  Is there some connection between infiltrating the DEA offices and spying on the 9/11 terrorists, or did those just happen to be two unrelated Mossad missions happening at the same time? I'm trying to understand Mossad' interest in the DEA.
adamrezich 1y ago
Man, this makes me really miss Actual Journalism.
- anonymousiam 1y ago
  I've seen lots of negative comments (and negative moderation) on HN toward content sourced from Fox News and The Washington Times (and other "conservative" outlets). This article seems to claim that those two employed the only journalists actually pursuing this story, and that other outlets (such as The Washington Post) were actively trying to discredit or sabotage their work. I'm in the small minority that only gets news by reading, and the stuff I read comes from many different politically biased views. Do this for a while and you'll see that the bias is always present (one way or the other), but the news stories themselves still usually have (at least some) merit.
  - adamrezich 1y ago
    Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I simply found it startling that the article was so well-written, and well-researched, given that my only exposure to Salon has been since the “bloggification of news”, which has seen them become just as much of a shitrag as everyone else these days. But this guy put some serious time and effort into researching this story, and then further time and effort to coalesce it into this article—all from a highly inquisitive, truth-seeking perspective, devoid (as far as I can tell anyway) of any sort of partisan bias, or predetermined “angle” to the story that he's trying to push. Boy would it be nice if we saw more Actual Investigative Journalism like this, these days!
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    > other outlets (such as The Washington Post) were actively trying to discredit or sabotage their work. This is news to me. Can you share more about it, articles published, etc..?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
quotz 1y ago
This is the first time I hear about this. Was there any coverage of this in mainstream media at that time?
- comrade1234 1y ago
  Well, yes. This very article. Which I remember reading in 2002. I think it was covered elsewhere too.
- nickdothutton 1y ago
  There was coverage but there were too many scattered points to draw an arc and from memory… most journos quickly gave up and moved on to the next thing.
  - arp242 1y ago
    The aggressive counter and (baseless) accusations of antisemitism might have something to do with that.
EGreg 1y ago
I remember seeing Fox News segments about how Israeli spies probably knew something like 9/11 was going to happen, but didn't inform the Americans. There was a 4-part series, here are all the parts I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoHYWD5C_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoHYWD5C_U Direct quote around 4:30 but it's all interesting. =================== Actually, I will add a few more mainstream sources (no conspiracies, only official published results from the official commissions and mainstream news) with head-scratchers about what happened on 9/11... 1) Leading up to the attacks, the CIA at the time specifically acted to block some people in the FBI from sending cables that would have alerted the FBI to the presence of the terrorists in the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#CIA_withheld_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#CIA_withheld_i... 2) The 9/11 Commission found that ""At some level of the government, at some point in time, a decision was made not to tell the truth about the national response to the attacks on the morning of 9/11 ... The [NORAD] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public."[19] Thomas Kean, the head of the 9/11 Commission, concurred, saying, "We to this day don't know why NORAD told us what they told us, it was just so far from the truth."[20]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#NORAD_falsehoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#NORAD_falsehoo... 3) On the day, NORAD was inexplicably ineffective at scrambling jets to intercept the hijacked aircraft, leading passengers of the fourth one to take matters into their own hands. Efforts to find out why this happened, even at the highest levels, have been frustrated. This is similar to the numerous questions about what happened with Israeli Defense Forces on October 7th and why it took them so long to come, when their own spotters whose only job it was to watch for these attacks, were calling in the attack for multiple hours before they were overrun and murdered... and the explanations are just as head-scratching: https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-7-warnings-ignored-charge-sexism-played-a-role/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-... 4) CNN Video soon after 9/11: Hijacker's passport found blocks from the World Trade Center crash site, completely intact, and given to a police officer by an unidentified man who "ran away": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QycTzwV7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QycTzwV7c 5) CBS Morning "Exclusive": Videos from 2000 surfaced of two 9/11 hijackers being seen at parties hosted by people on the payroll of Saudi intelligence... declassified in 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UahouPSiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UahouPSiA 6) Vanity Fair: just days after 9/11, members of the Bin Laden family were whisked out of the US on private jets: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-200310 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-20... 7) Declassified documents (still heavily redacted) about the 9/11 materials released in response to Biden's executive order: https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-investigation-and-related-materials/9-11-material-released-in-response-to-executive-order-14040 https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-investigation-and-related...
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
PicassoCTs 1y ago
[flagged]

109 points by georgecmu 1y ago

Check out the Shea Memorandum, see page 53 in the PDF for the detailed short summary of points. https://www.yale64.org/news/shea.pdf https://www.yale64.org/news/shea.pdf

flumpcakes 1y ago
I have never seen that before. If I am reading that correctly: it is interesting that Israel was doing the work on US soil, giving the FBI/CIA a heads up about a potential large scale terrorist attack against the US and then the FBI/CIA seemingly do little to stop what eventually becomes 9/11 later that year. The FBI/CIA then obfuscate where their intel came from.
- neuroelectron 1y ago
  Interesting. I wonder what part of their work required them to shut off parts of the WTC and remove a window.
- throwawayQuwcy 1y ago
  "Why the Israeli government decided not to share with us all the critical information they had, and the extent of that information, is a subject for the public inquiry. They may have thought some sort of warning prudent in the event their surveillance activities later became a matter of public knowledge. But any energetic Israeli effort to assist the United States in preventing the attacks would not have served their strategic interest, in view of the disastrous effect those attacks were likely to have on the relationships between the United States and the Arab world."
  - dogma1138 1y ago
    Keep in mind that Gerald Shea was a lawyer (DA in California at the time he wrote this) without access to any official information this isn’t an official document, it’s something that a person wrote on their own and submitted it. This is very much bordering on conspiracy theories…
    - throwawayQuwcy 1y ago
      Thanks for the info on Gerald Shea! Though if you'd like to comment on the "Shea Memorandum" / Gerald Shea I think that would be more appropriate on the parent comment? A question was asked, I answered with the relevant quote from the paper, you replied "conspiracy theory" on that specific quote & ad-hominem'ed the author? Calling "conspiracy theory" is not good-faith discussion and employs a number of logical fallacies like appeal to ridicule & poisoning the well. What parts of the "Shea Memorandum" do you think are likely non-factual? The Israeli art students?
      - dogma1138 1y ago
        Nothing in that “memorandum” is actually backed by any evidence, it’s the unofficial work of a single individual who neither has had intelligence experience nor access to any intelligence material. It is fan fiction not an official document, hence why it was rejected at its time for the nonsense it is, but I guess the daily stormer is cool these days.
        guiriduro 1y ago
        You did not answer the question. Its irrelevant who Shea is or what you assume about his circumstances, if the evidence discussed is well-sourced. Which reported evidence in the Shea report are you contending is false (or not asserted in contemporaneous sources cited in the document), and why?
        dogma1138 1y ago
        None of the evidence is sourced yet alone well sourced…
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
PicassoCTs 1y ago
Updated version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of... ?
- dogma1138 1y ago
  Despite the downvotes not far off…
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
yencabulator 1y ago
Is there some connection between infiltrating the DEA offices and spying on the 9/11 terrorists, or did those just happen to be two unrelated Mossad missions happening at the same time? I'm trying to understand Mossad' interest in the DEA.

adamrezich 1y ago

Man, this makes me really miss Actual Journalism.

anonymousiam 1y ago
I've seen lots of negative comments (and negative moderation) on HN toward content sourced from Fox News and The Washington Times (and other "conservative" outlets). This article seems to claim that those two employed the only journalists actually pursuing this story, and that other outlets (such as The Washington Post) were actively trying to discredit or sabotage their work. I'm in the small minority that only gets news by reading, and the stuff I read comes from many different politically biased views. Do this for a while and you'll see that the bias is always present (one way or the other), but the news stories themselves still usually have (at least some) merit.
- adamrezich 1y ago
  Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I simply found it startling that the article was so well-written, and well-researched, given that my only exposure to Salon has been since the “bloggification of news”, which has seen them become just as much of a shitrag as everyone else these days. But this guy put some serious time and effort into researching this story, and then further time and effort to coalesce it into this article—all from a highly inquisitive, truth-seeking perspective, devoid (as far as I can tell anyway) of any sort of partisan bias, or predetermined “angle” to the story that he's trying to push. Boy would it be nice if we saw more Actual Investigative Journalism like this, these days!
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- like_any_other 1y ago
  > other outlets (such as The Washington Post) were actively trying to discredit or sabotage their work. This is news to me. Can you share more about it, articles published, etc..?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

quotz 1y ago

This is the first time I hear about this. Was there any coverage of this in mainstream media at that time?

comrade1234 1y ago
Well, yes. This very article. Which I remember reading in 2002. I think it was covered elsewhere too.
nickdothutton 1y ago
There was coverage but there were too many scattered points to draw an arc and from memory… most journos quickly gave up and moved on to the next thing.
- arp242 1y ago
  The aggressive counter and (baseless) accusations of antisemitism might have something to do with that.

EGreg 1y ago

I remember seeing Fox News segments about how Israeli spies probably knew something like 9/11 was going to happen, but didn't inform the Americans. There was a 4-part series, here are all the parts I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoHYWD5C_U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euoHYWD5C_U Direct quote around 4:30 but it's all interesting. =================== Actually, I will add a few more mainstream sources (no conspiracies, only official published results from the official commissions and mainstream news) with head-scratchers about what happened on 9/11... 1) Leading up to the attacks, the CIA at the time specifically acted to block some people in the FBI from sending cables that would have alerted the FBI to the presence of the terrorists in the country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#CIA_withheld_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#CIA_withheld_i... 2) The 9/11 Commission found that ""At some level of the government, at some point in time, a decision was made not to tell the truth about the national response to the attacks on the morning of 9/11 ... The [NORAD] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public."[19] Thomas Kean, the head of the 9/11 Commission, concurred, saying, "We to this day don't know why NORAD told us what they told us, it was just so far from the truth."[20]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#NORAD_falsehoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#NORAD_falsehoo... 3) On the day, NORAD was inexplicably ineffective at scrambling jets to intercept the hijacked aircraft, leading passengers of the fourth one to take matters into their own hands. Efforts to find out why this happened, even at the highest levels, have been frustrated. This is similar to the numerous questions about what happened with Israeli Defense Forces on October 7th and why it took them so long to come, when their own spotters whose only job it was to watch for these attacks, were calling in the attack for multiple hours before they were overrun and murdered... and the explanations are just as head-scratching: https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-7-warnings-ignored-charge-sexism-played-a-role/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-say-oct-... 4) CNN Video soon after 9/11: Hijacker's passport found blocks from the World Trade Center crash site, completely intact, and given to a police officer by an unidentified man who "ran away": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QycTzwV7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-QycTzwV7c 5) CBS Morning "Exclusive": Videos from 2000 surfaced of two 9/11 hijackers being seen at parties hosted by people on the payroll of Saudi intelligence... declassified in 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UahouPSiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UahouPSiA 6) Vanity Fair: just days after 9/11, members of the Bin Laden family were whisked out of the US on private jets: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-200310 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-20... 7) Declassified documents (still heavily redacted) about the 9/11 materials released in response to Biden's executive order: https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-investigation-and-related-materials/9-11-material-released-in-response-to-executive-order-14040 https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11-attacks-investigation-and-related...

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

PicassoCTs 1y ago

[flagged]