4 ms·

Only an uncharitable reading of GP would find some implication that this is wrong (or right). Just impartial commenting on how benefits are indeed available to

Only an uncharitable reading of GP would find some implication that this is wrong (or right). Just impartial commenting on how benefits are indeed available to non-citizens.

netsharc 1y ago
Him using the word "illegal" makes me doubt the impartiality... To play language cop, "undocumented" would be more neutral...
- burningChrome 1y ago
  Legally speaking, if you enter the country without entering through a port of entry? That is actually ILLEGAL. Therefore, its not a stretch to use the word "ILLEGAL ALIEN". Just for reference: 8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    It is not the human that is illegal, just because their entry into the country was. Words matter. Specificity matters. Dehumanizing propaganda matters.
    - jvanderbot 1y ago
      An illegal alien is a title / designation. Just like an illegal vendor, unregulated industry, or ineligible participant. Person first language is a good thing, but only recent political events have taken up the "No person is illegal" wordsmithing.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        By moving the designator illegal from the activity to the person, you are criminalizing their being instead of their deed. It is a way of dehumanizing people.
        jvanderbot 1y ago
        Yes, I understand what you mean. And I tend to agree. I'm just making space for intent, and as much as words matter, intent also matters. A person who entered the country illegally is not incorrectly (even if roughly) abbreviated as an "illegal alien", since alien is a designation for "person of a foreign country" in this case. It's true this can be misused, but it's also true I don't think OP misused it or intended to, and even if it could be interpreted as a rough slight, I'd prefer we took the charitable stance, evaluated intent in context, and stayed out of semantics and focused on the issue (in this case whether such individuals receive funded health care benefits). That's really it. If you disagree and think this was the time to call that out, that's ok, I just disagree and don't have anything more to say on it. Cheers.
    - xdennis 1y ago
      Everybody knows that illegal migrant means an migrant who is illegal present in the country. You're only trying to say that it means "his humanity is against the law" to stigmatize people who care about law enforcement. If the term "illegal migrant" offends them then that's a good thing, because you should be ashamed when you break the law. When you call an illegal a "undocumented migrant" you're essentially downplaying the illegality of the act. It's just as bad as calling a rapist an "undocumented lover". You're de-stigmatizing breaking the law.
      - ktallett 1y ago
        The law in this case is against the point of humans. We are an explorative species that should not be constricted by luck of birthplace.
- huhkerrf 1y ago
  No, no it wouldn't. Undocumented immigrant is far from a neutral term. They haven't just forgotten their documents, or oops! the government hasn't gotten around to documenting them. They are in the country when they aren't supposed to. If you really hate the term "illegal immigrant", fine then call them unauthorized immigrants, but the "no person is illegal" slogan is just a motte and balley.
  - ktallett 1y ago
    No person is illegal as borders are arbitrary, enforced by other humans, not by any real natural divide, hence why they change.
    - huhkerrf 1y ago
      Speed limits are also arbitrary, enforced by other humans, not by any real natural divide, hence why they change. Again, motte and bally.
      - ktallett 1y ago
        Speed limits aren't required by nature, we happen to have built machines that are deadly and need control.
        throw10920 1y ago
        Meanwhile, borders are required by nature, because cultures are not interchangeable and cultural friction exists, rendering borders and controlled assimilation necessary. You also committed a logical fallacy: > No person is illegal as borders are arbitrary That's fallacious. All laws are arbitrary, as the GP pointed out, and you somehow failed to read: > Speed limits are also arbitrary, enforced by other humans So, it's factually true that borders are both necessary due to nature, and exist in the legal realm such that "illegal immigrants" is a factually correct label.
- pseudo0 1y ago
  Illegal alien is the correct legal terminology used in immigration statutes. "Undocumented" is a confusing euphemism. Most illegal aliens have documentation from their country of origin, what they lack is legal authorization to live in the US.

Only an uncharitable reading of GP would find some implication that this is wrong (or right). Just impartial commenting on how benefits are indeed available to non-citizens.

netsharc 1y ago

Him using the word "illegal" makes me doubt the impartiality... To play language cop, "undocumented" would be more neutral...

burningChrome 1y ago
Legally speaking, if you enter the country without entering through a port of entry? That is actually ILLEGAL. Therefore, its not a stretch to use the word "ILLEGAL ALIEN". Just for reference: 8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  It is not the human that is illegal, just because their entry into the country was. Words matter. Specificity matters. Dehumanizing propaganda matters.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    An illegal alien is a title / designation. Just like an illegal vendor, unregulated industry, or ineligible participant. Person first language is a good thing, but only recent political events have taken up the "No person is illegal" wordsmithing.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      By moving the designator illegal from the activity to the person, you are criminalizing their being instead of their deed. It is a way of dehumanizing people.
      - jvanderbot 1y ago
        Yes, I understand what you mean. And I tend to agree. I'm just making space for intent, and as much as words matter, intent also matters. A person who entered the country illegally is not incorrectly (even if roughly) abbreviated as an "illegal alien", since alien is a designation for "person of a foreign country" in this case. It's true this can be misused, but it's also true I don't think OP misused it or intended to, and even if it could be interpreted as a rough slight, I'd prefer we took the charitable stance, evaluated intent in context, and stayed out of semantics and focused on the issue (in this case whether such individuals receive funded health care benefits). That's really it. If you disagree and think this was the time to call that out, that's ok, I just disagree and don't have anything more to say on it. Cheers.
  - xdennis 1y ago
    Everybody knows that illegal migrant means an migrant who is illegal present in the country. You're only trying to say that it means "his humanity is against the law" to stigmatize people who care about law enforcement. If the term "illegal migrant" offends them then that's a good thing, because you should be ashamed when you break the law. When you call an illegal a "undocumented migrant" you're essentially downplaying the illegality of the act. It's just as bad as calling a rapist an "undocumented lover". You're de-stigmatizing breaking the law.
    - ktallett 1y ago
      The law in this case is against the point of humans. We are an explorative species that should not be constricted by luck of birthplace.
huhkerrf 1y ago
No, no it wouldn't. Undocumented immigrant is far from a neutral term. They haven't just forgotten their documents, or oops! the government hasn't gotten around to documenting them. They are in the country when they aren't supposed to. If you really hate the term "illegal immigrant", fine then call them unauthorized immigrants, but the "no person is illegal" slogan is just a motte and balley.
- ktallett 1y ago
  No person is illegal as borders are arbitrary, enforced by other humans, not by any real natural divide, hence why they change.
  - huhkerrf 1y ago
    Speed limits are also arbitrary, enforced by other humans, not by any real natural divide, hence why they change. Again, motte and bally.
    - ktallett 1y ago
      Speed limits aren't required by nature, we happen to have built machines that are deadly and need control.
      - throw10920 1y ago
        Meanwhile, borders are required by nature, because cultures are not interchangeable and cultural friction exists, rendering borders and controlled assimilation necessary. You also committed a logical fallacy: > No person is illegal as borders are arbitrary That's fallacious. All laws are arbitrary, as the GP pointed out, and you somehow failed to read: > Speed limits are also arbitrary, enforced by other humans So, it's factually true that borders are both necessary due to nature, and exist in the legal realm such that "illegal immigrants" is a factually correct label.
pseudo0 1y ago
Illegal alien is the correct legal terminology used in immigration statutes. "Undocumented" is a confusing euphemism. Most illegal aliens have documentation from their country of origin, what they lack is legal authorization to live in the US.