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Bezos' grandmother was dying of smoking cigarettes, and if he managed to push her into quitting it was probably worth being a little mean about it. This is the

by emmett 14y ago

Bezos' grandmother was dying of smoking cigarettes, and if he managed to push her into quitting it was probably worth being a little mean about it. This is the kind of "deep" sounding quote that's actually not so deep at all. It's obviously good to be kind, and good to be clever, and in fact in order to really be kind one must be at least a little clever. Check the consequences, not the surface appearance, of your actions!

ktizo 14y ago
if he managed to push her into quitting it was probably worth being a little mean about it. Only if being mean to someone is a much more effective way of making them quit. It is just as likely to stress them out and make them smoke more. Being mean to be nice as a strategy only makes logical sense if there is no way to achieve the same thing without being mean, otherwise you are just being mean and justifying it with some potential future outcome.
- dllthomas 14y ago
  Mostly correct. "Being mean to be nice as a strategy only makes logical sense if there is no way to achieve the same thing without being mean[.]" Not quite. Being mean to be nice as a strategy makes logical sense if the benefits to the other person from your employing that strategy outweighs the drawbacks, as compared to alternative strategies. That it be the only option to accomplish the goal is neither necessary (if alternatives avoid being mean but have other huge drawbacks) nor sufficient (if the goal itself is not worth the damage done by being mean), though is certainly highly suggestive.
  - eitland 14y ago
    Meta: Nice example in correcting someone in a nice way.
chc 14y ago
I agree with your conclusion, but I'm not sure it applies here. Being mean is not the same thing as being persuasive, and very often they are at odds. There are usually better ways to get someone to come around to your way of thinking than making them feel bad about themselves. Making someone feel bad can actually decrease your credibility in their eyes, because it makes them want for you to be wrong. Think about great salespeople you've known. How many use insults to motivate their prospects, and how many use flattery?
- slantyyz 14y ago
  I agree with everything you're saying, but would like to add that being factual isn't the same thing as being mean, although it can be perceived that way.
  - majelix 14y ago
    "Being mean" is about HOW you present the facts. Yes, this is more or less difficult with some facts (such as getting fired), but there are ways(It's not you, it's me). It's up to us to care enough to be nice and how we're perceived.
    - slantyyz 14y ago
      You're right, if you present with malice, that's mean. But sometimes the facts themselves are perceived as mean, when they really aren't.
DannoHung 14y ago
This sounds like the logic of a bully who beats up on smaller kids so that they'll be "stronger" later.
- gwern 14y ago
  A bully who carefully doesn't follow the bit about checking consequences. (This reminds me of the old vein of criticisms of consequentalism which go: assume consequentalists are dumb; then they might do thing X with bad consequences...)
  - pjscott 14y ago
    To elaborate, because a surprising number of people need this spelled out very explicitly: a victim's suffering is a consequence of bullying. If you want to make consequentialist arguments, it's crazy to simply ignore major consequences just because they're intangible.
bad_user 14y ago
I can tell you from personal experience that no matter what strategy you use, you cannot make someone quit smoking, unless that someone already wanted to quit smoking, in which case your actions are superfluous. If you really want to do something about it, the best thing you can do is to show that person the hard-facts about smoking, and give her reassurance that people can and have quit smoking successfully. And then hope that in the future, when she'll be disgusted about this habit one morning, she'll remember your words and seek further help. Being mean about it, no matter the scope, doesn't do any good. And as a negative consequence, the smoker will begin to avoid you. (disclaimer: I'm currently a smoker)

by emmett 14y ago

ktizo 14y ago

if he managed to push her into quitting it was probably worth being a little mean about it. Only if being mean to someone is a much more effective way of making them quit. It is just as likely to stress them out and make them smoke more. Being mean to be nice as a strategy only makes logical sense if there is no way to achieve the same thing without being mean, otherwise you are just being mean and justifying it with some potential future outcome.

dllthomas 14y ago
Mostly correct. "Being mean to be nice as a strategy only makes logical sense if there is no way to achieve the same thing without being mean[.]" Not quite. Being mean to be nice as a strategy makes logical sense if the benefits to the other person from your employing that strategy outweighs the drawbacks, as compared to alternative strategies. That it be the only option to accomplish the goal is neither necessary (if alternatives avoid being mean but have other huge drawbacks) nor sufficient (if the goal itself is not worth the damage done by being mean), though is certainly highly suggestive.
- eitland 14y ago
  Meta: Nice example in correcting someone in a nice way.

chc 14y ago

I agree with your conclusion, but I'm not sure it applies here. Being mean is not the same thing as being persuasive, and very often they are at odds. There are usually better ways to get someone to come around to your way of thinking than making them feel bad about themselves. Making someone feel bad can actually decrease your credibility in their eyes, because it makes them want for you to be wrong. Think about great salespeople you've known. How many use insults to motivate their prospects, and how many use flattery?

slantyyz 14y ago
I agree with everything you're saying, but would like to add that being factual isn't the same thing as being mean, although it can be perceived that way.
- majelix 14y ago
  "Being mean" is about HOW you present the facts. Yes, this is more or less difficult with some facts (such as getting fired), but there are ways(It's not you, it's me). It's up to us to care enough to be nice and how we're perceived.
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    You're right, if you present with malice, that's mean. But sometimes the facts themselves are perceived as mean, when they really aren't.

DannoHung 14y ago

This sounds like the logic of a bully who beats up on smaller kids so that they'll be "stronger" later.

gwern 14y ago
A bully who carefully doesn't follow the bit about checking consequences. (This reminds me of the old vein of criticisms of consequentalism which go: assume consequentalists are dumb; then they might do thing X with bad consequences...)
- pjscott 14y ago
  To elaborate, because a surprising number of people need this spelled out very explicitly: a victim's suffering is a consequence of bullying. If you want to make consequentialist arguments, it's crazy to simply ignore major consequences just because they're intangible.

bad_user 14y ago

I can tell you from personal experience that no matter what strategy you use, you cannot make someone quit smoking, unless that someone already wanted to quit smoking, in which case your actions are superfluous. If you really want to do something about it, the best thing you can do is to show that person the hard-facts about smoking, and give her reassurance that people can and have quit smoking successfully. And then hope that in the future, when she'll be disgusted about this habit one morning, she'll remember your words and seek further help. Being mean about it, no matter the scope, doesn't do any good. And as a negative consequence, the smoker will begin to avoid you. (disclaimer: I'm currently a smoker)