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> I should point out that IT is less intellectually demanding than software engineering In those roles I lead development teams that were producing software pr

> I should point out that IT is less intellectually demanding than software engineering In those roles I lead development teams that were producing software products used both for internal and external customers. In my current role which sits product-side, I work directly with SWEs to produce a successful complex software product. I am pretty sure I understand the complexities of software engineering and can speak to my experience with different developers from different educational paths considering it’s been a big part of my vocational journey for the last 27 years. You may not have chosen a self-taught path and that’s ok for you. You may not be bound by a pattern bias because of educational rigidity like some others, but watch out that you don’t fall into elitism.

wakawaka28 1y ago
>In those roles I lead development teams that were producing software products used both for internal and external customers. In my current role which sits product-side, I work directly with SWEs to produce a successful complex software product. So, there is a difference between "leading" teams and having actual deep competency in the thing. I could hire a civil engineer or architect and "lead" them by giving them requirements and feedback, and I might even know the rudiments of what they do. That does not make me a civil engineer or architect. >I am pretty sure I understand the complexities of software engineering and can speak to my experience with different developers from different educational paths considering it’s been a big part of my vocational journey for the last 27 years. With all due respect I've met people with decades of experience on their resumes who could not write a lick of code. These people were overconfident in their abilities to figure things out by searching Google. I'm not saying you are in that category. But appealing to experience is hardly better than appealing to educational background. At least there is an actual accreditation process for CS degrees. >You may not have chosen a self-taught path and that’s ok for you. You may not be bound by a pattern bias because of educational rigidity like some others, but watch out that you don’t fall into elitism. I am reasonably open-minded. But certifications such as college degrees are labor saving devices. If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. It takes some of the guesswork out of hiring. Of course, even people with degrees also have to contend with elitism against them, whether it is the type of crap in this article ("no degree is better actually!") or someone nit picking about the rank of your university or even your GPA, or how many degrees you got, or the title of your program... My point remains, this article is wrong. Most training undertaken at reasonable expense is worth it, especially the standard bachelor's in CS degree.
- kcplate 1y ago
  > If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” …and I stand by that wholeheartedly. I get that you are trying to justify (likely your own) education here, but what you characterize as obvious simply does not jive with my experience. My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. Your CS degree will have about as much functional longevity considering how fast things are moving nowadays too. You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Perhaps you are in a position now or will be in the future and you can use your own logic in your hiring criteria. I hope it works for you. My logic was certainly successful for me.
  - wakawaka28 1y ago
    >In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught individual. Unless you are assuming identical skill or knowledge as if the self-taught guy had more experience or something to make up for not having a degree (thus not identical in the straightforward way). > My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. I very much doubt that. Software engineering and even hardware resemble the stuff that existed 50 years ago. Some of the same languages are still in use. When there are new innovations, they are rarely reinventing the way we do things in such a drastic way. Your background knowledge will help you learn new things easier. >You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Ironically I am doing advanced work in the same languages I learned first in university, 20 years ago. There are some innovations I've had to keep up with of course, but I think my education served me very well. Could I have done it without going to college? Maybe, but it's doubtful because college is literally taking years off of full-time employment to dedicate yourself to study. Would anyone have given me a chance and suffered my blunders as I tried to learn on the job? I doubt it, even though I know people who have made it without a degree. In this market, I have to say that the bar for anyone not having an appropriate degree is high. I'm certainly not giving preference to people with no degree. At best I would consider expect them to have to compensate for not doing what everyone else does.

wakawaka28 1y ago

>In those roles I lead development teams that were producing software products used both for internal and external customers. In my current role which sits product-side, I work directly with SWEs to produce a successful complex software product. So, there is a difference between "leading" teams and having actual deep competency in the thing. I could hire a civil engineer or architect and "lead" them by giving them requirements and feedback, and I might even know the rudiments of what they do. That does not make me a civil engineer or architect. >I am pretty sure I understand the complexities of software engineering and can speak to my experience with different developers from different educational paths considering it’s been a big part of my vocational journey for the last 27 years. With all due respect I've met people with decades of experience on their resumes who could not write a lick of code. These people were overconfident in their abilities to figure things out by searching Google. I'm not saying you are in that category. But appealing to experience is hardly better than appealing to educational background. At least there is an actual accreditation process for CS degrees. >You may not have chosen a self-taught path and that’s ok for you. You may not be bound by a pattern bias because of educational rigidity like some others, but watch out that you don’t fall into elitism. I am reasonably open-minded. But certifications such as college degrees are labor saving devices. If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. It takes some of the guesswork out of hiring. Of course, even people with degrees also have to contend with elitism against them, whether it is the type of crap in this article ("no degree is better actually!") or someone nit picking about the rank of your university or even your GPA, or how many degrees you got, or the title of your program... My point remains, this article is wrong. Most training undertaken at reasonable expense is worth it, especially the standard bachelor's in CS degree.

kcplate 1y ago
> If two people are similar in almost every way but one has a relevant degree, the degree wins obviously. In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” …and I stand by that wholeheartedly. I get that you are trying to justify (likely your own) education here, but what you characterize as obvious simply does not jive with my experience. My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. Your CS degree will have about as much functional longevity considering how fast things are moving nowadays too. You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Perhaps you are in a position now or will be in the future and you can use your own logic in your hiring criteria. I hope it works for you. My logic was certainly successful for me.
- wakawaka28 1y ago
  >In my original comment I said this: “I would have definitely given an advantage to a self-taught dev over a CS grad provided that they were generally equivalent in all other aspects for the role.” Yes, my point is that the CS grad has done 4+ years more work in the field than a self-taught individual. Unless you are assuming identical skill or knowledge as if the self-taught guy had more experience or something to make up for not having a degree (thus not identical in the straightforward way). > My education provided knowledge value that lasted about 4 years into my career before tech evolved enough to make it effectively obsolete. I very much doubt that. Software engineering and even hardware resemble the stuff that existed 50 years ago. Some of the same languages are still in use. When there are new innovations, they are rarely reinventing the way we do things in such a drastic way. Your background knowledge will help you learn new things easier. >You get beyond 10 years out of school, the stuff you did in the last 3 years will have more bearing on your current than anything you did in university. Ironically I am doing advanced work in the same languages I learned first in university, 20 years ago. There are some innovations I've had to keep up with of course, but I think my education served me very well. Could I have done it without going to college? Maybe, but it's doubtful because college is literally taking years off of full-time employment to dedicate yourself to study. Would anyone have given me a chance and suffered my blunders as I tried to learn on the job? I doubt it, even though I know people who have made it without a degree. In this market, I have to say that the bar for anyone not having an appropriate degree is high. I'm certainly not giving preference to people with no degree. At best I would consider expect them to have to compensate for not doing what everyone else does.