4 ms·

The study design does try to mitigate blinding issues and expectancy effects, but with half of the participants reporting past use of hallucinogens, this is not

by tux3 1y ago

The study design does try to mitigate blinding issues and expectancy effects, but with half of the participants reporting past use of hallucinogens, this is not going to be very effective blinding. A majority of your low dose 1st group likely very much realizes that they're on the inactive dose.

bedane 1y ago
I think this says more about the usual psy drugs we're prescribed and use. they don't do jack shit.
- Bluestein 1y ago
  The very apparent effect these things have makes you wonder if they do not (somehow) correct for what otherwise could be a built-in deficiency we carry with us, by "design" correcting some sort of built-in imbalance ...
- jenkstom 1y ago
  Sorry, but I'd be dead without mine. I'm going to have to disagree with you.
  - hattmall 1y ago
    The interesting thing with mushrooms is that you could eat a handful, realize you are already dead, and then maybe not need the other meds at all.
    - quesera 1y ago
      This could be interpreted as psychedelic ego death from psilocin, backdooring into some kind of personal revelation. Or as clinical death from Amanita toxicity, with some meta commentary on religion. +1. :)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- voidUpdate 1y ago
  Mine have definitely helped me, as if I miss them for a day I get noticeably worse
  - gh2k 1y ago
    Those can be "discontinuation effects" rather than lack of treatment. I'm not saying they aren't doing good for you, but it's important to bear in mind that acute symptoms from missing a dose can be a different thing.
demiters 1y ago
Is it even possible to solve the issue of there being no convincing placebo? Would a different hallucinogen like 4-HO-MET work, where the visual experience component is similar, but the visceral effect on consciousness and thought patterns is less pronounced, almost sober like?
voidUpdate 1y ago
"Well everything looks exactly the same to me, and the guy over there is staring at the carpet and whispering about The Fractals, so I think I'm in the control group"
- burstoflight 1y ago
  [dead]
- josh-sematic 1y ago
  Of course things get really complicated when this guy is messing with your control group https://xkcd.com/790/ https://xkcd.com/790/
alphazard 1y ago
There's an argument to be made that traditional blinding and placebo techniques are not really relevant for interventions targeting mood or personality. e.g. anything that makes you feel better is an effective mood intervention, by definition. "blinding" in these studies is really just going through the motions to make certain authorities happy. I would be more interested in polling the close friends and family of study participants and asking them about perceived changes. Instruct participants not to tell anyone about their experience in the study (whether they think they got a drug or how much). It looks like the study tried to do something like this with "session monitors" who interviewed the participants the day after. They call it double-blind, but it's more like single-blind because the 3rd person assessment is the outcome measure.
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  The issue with relying on placebo effects is not that they aren't real/don't work (everything you said also applies to e.g. a painkiller), but that they are very context-sensitive. Deploy that drug to an individual or population with a different belief framework or contextual information about the therapy or their condition, and you won't get the desired results. The design you mention is really interesting! Have you seen this done anywhere?
hattmall 1y ago
Or they could give them a different psychedelic to test the efficacy of psilocybin specifically would be my thought.
- _alternator_ 1y ago
  Seems that most hallucinogens have similar benefits, with “more powerful” drugs having a more profound effect. Here’s a study on social learning in mice [1]. TLDR: length of trip correlates strongly to duration of treatment effect (eg 6 hour trip -> 1 week effect, 36 hour trip -> 6+ month effect IIRC). Psylocybin isn’t the most studied because it’s likely to be the most effective drug. It’s because the therapists/grad students can work an 8 hour day instead of providing 12+ hour care for LSD or multi-day treatment with Ibogaine. [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06204-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06204-3

by tux3 1y ago

bedane 1y ago

I think this says more about the usual psy drugs we're prescribed and use. they don't do jack shit.

Bluestein 1y ago
The very apparent effect these things have makes you wonder if they do not (somehow) correct for what otherwise could be a built-in deficiency we carry with us, by "design" correcting some sort of built-in imbalance ...
jenkstom 1y ago
Sorry, but I'd be dead without mine. I'm going to have to disagree with you.
- hattmall 1y ago
  The interesting thing with mushrooms is that you could eat a handful, realize you are already dead, and then maybe not need the other meds at all.
  - quesera 1y ago
    This could be interpreted as psychedelic ego death from psilocin, backdooring into some kind of personal revelation. Or as clinical death from Amanita toxicity, with some meta commentary on religion. +1. :)
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
voidUpdate 1y ago
Mine have definitely helped me, as if I miss them for a day I get noticeably worse
- gh2k 1y ago
  Those can be "discontinuation effects" rather than lack of treatment. I'm not saying they aren't doing good for you, but it's important to bear in mind that acute symptoms from missing a dose can be a different thing.

demiters 1y ago

Is it even possible to solve the issue of there being no convincing placebo? Would a different hallucinogen like 4-HO-MET work, where the visual experience component is similar, but the visceral effect on consciousness and thought patterns is less pronounced, almost sober like?

voidUpdate 1y ago

"Well everything looks exactly the same to me, and the guy over there is staring at the carpet and whispering about The Fractals, so I think I'm in the control group"

burstoflight 1y ago
[dead]
josh-sematic 1y ago
Of course things get really complicated when this guy is messing with your control group https://xkcd.com/790/ https://xkcd.com/790/

alphazard 1y ago

There's an argument to be made that traditional blinding and placebo techniques are not really relevant for interventions targeting mood or personality. e.g. anything that makes you feel better is an effective mood intervention, by definition. "blinding" in these studies is really just going through the motions to make certain authorities happy. I would be more interested in polling the close friends and family of study participants and asking them about perceived changes. Instruct participants not to tell anyone about their experience in the study (whether they think they got a drug or how much). It looks like the study tried to do something like this with "session monitors" who interviewed the participants the day after. They call it double-blind, but it's more like single-blind because the 3rd person assessment is the outcome measure.

sorcerer-mar 1y ago
The issue with relying on placebo effects is not that they aren't real/don't work (everything you said also applies to e.g. a painkiller), but that they are very context-sensitive. Deploy that drug to an individual or population with a different belief framework or contextual information about the therapy or their condition, and you won't get the desired results. The design you mention is really interesting! Have you seen this done anywhere?

hattmall 1y ago

Or they could give them a different psychedelic to test the efficacy of psilocybin specifically would be my thought.

_alternator_ 1y ago
Seems that most hallucinogens have similar benefits, with “more powerful” drugs having a more profound effect. Here’s a study on social learning in mice [1]. TLDR: length of trip correlates strongly to duration of treatment effect (eg 6 hour trip -> 1 week effect, 36 hour trip -> 6+ month effect IIRC). Psylocybin isn’t the most studied because it’s likely to be the most effective drug. It’s because the therapists/grad students can work an 8 hour day instead of providing 12+ hour care for LSD or multi-day treatment with Ibogaine. [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06204-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06204-3