6 ms·

Fairphone and a Framework is just fine. What exactly do you do that suggests there is no alternative? I can see absolutely nothing Apple does that no other lapt

Fairphone and a Framework is just fine. What exactly do you do that suggests there is no alternative? I can see absolutely nothing Apple does that no other laptop can.

bayindirh 1y ago
> I can see absolutely nothing Apple does that no other laptop can. Let me check the list. - High DPI screen with color calibration and automatic white balancing, working 99% of the time. Ensuring your eyes always sees the color it expects without fatigue. Plus, HDR. - Most decent external screens you plug will also have their correct color profile installed on the OS level, so they'll not show funny colors. - 15+ hour battery life on an ordinary laptop if you don't abuse it. Even my M1 can handle me for a couple of days with light usage. - Good quality speakers, decent stereo separation without being too tinny or boomy. - Great quality cameras and microphones for its size. - Great, backlight illuminated keyboard, with no flex. - A realistic 8-10 year usage life without babying it. - A full metal body, and keeping it light for that amount of metal. - Built-in biometrics which runs on a proper secure enclave, without any "touch here, write absurdly long pasword you don't know there" shenanigans of Windows. - A POSIX compliant, BSD descendant OS which can interoperate with Linux way better than Windows. - A proper backup system which backs up whole OS and system state to an external drive, better than old "Windows 7 backup" and miles better than new "OneDrive only Windows Backup". - Better radios, backend and port bandwidth than its class-equivalent machines. Essentially a loaded MacBook Pro is equivalent to a Z-Workstation Mobile from HP. ...and these are standard in almost every MacBook. I don't go through hoops to beg local distributors to build the machine I like via their configuration wizard, and wait them to import it if they feel like it, and pay 3x of its sticker price because it's a one off import tucked inside a bigger shipment. Even CTO devices by Apple are shipped in a week and comes to my door in another 1-2. I pay the sticker price for the device I want. Do you need more? Sent from my Linux desktop system.
- ktallett 1y ago
  It has some benefits, the battery life (you aren't getting 15 hours from it doing a normal workload), keyboard, cameras, are pretty similar to many other laptops. Linux exists so a pale imitation isn't needed, its not light, and there are plenty of as good if not better back up options. What about the overall quality of the software and hardware being rather poor? No repair-ability, a limited OS now, low quality glass covering the screens, lack of long term support for many laptops now?
  - PaulRobinson 1y ago
    You are 100% getting 15 hours from a normal workload. The keyboard is better than any other laptop keyboard. The camera is better than any other laptop integrated webcam. The quality of the software is same or better as Linux (because getting all your Linux desktop and command line software running is a brew install away). The hardware is class leading. The screens are best in class. The laptops will last you 8-10 years and then you can install a Linux on them and keep them going for another 5. Yes, repairability is poor, but improving. I get why people make other choices, but the idea that Apple hardware is poor quality and the software is terrible just isn't the way to do it. Argue about purity of freedom, argue about cost (Apple hardware is expensive, because it's superb), argue about crappy dev account policies like the thread is here to support. But, y'know, don't just make up stuff anybody who uses this stuff daily knows is just made up...
    - ktallett 1y ago
      HP have a better webcam (Higher res and better colours), Z Book and Framework have the same keyboard basically, the software is no where near as good (far more locked down), considering M series have been out for 5 and many had very speedy failures I doubt 8-10 years especially for the base models on low ram. Multicore scores (so for any form of simulation or parallel computing) work M series are not even in the conversation in comparison with the latest AMD and Intel. Another key issue is due to architecture change, their reusability once they become unusable in their current form means its Asahi or nothing. Repairability is non existant, a battery and some ports is not anything to shout about. I have used Macs since the early 90's when they were repairable, pretty much consistently and I still have to on occassion but they have dropped the ball on every aspect. From the late 90's repairability and innovation have gone downhill. The late 00's to the early 10's brought it back and ever since then bar the odd thing that is pretty but less practical, just look at the touch bar and the removal of ports. I have had Thinkpads, ZBooks, and other laptops such as Lets Note easily as long as a macbook and yes some of the pretty may be missing but that isn't what I focus on in devices.
      - bayindirh 1y ago
- piva00 1y ago
  Also, macOS's audio stack is unmatched, Windows and Linux are an absolute mess for anything audio-related. It's doable on those OSes but very far from a pleasant experience.
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Oh, yes, that's very true. I forgot that since I'm not recording for quite some time now.
  - majewsky 1y ago
    Asking as a Linux user for whom PipeWire works fine (for recording, live-streaming, as well as playback), what does macOS do better?
    - bayindirh 1y ago
      Latency for the most part. It's almost non-existent and has effectively no visible load on the system. Also, you can plug any advanced interface via USB or Thunderbolt and carry massive amount of audio data just by selecting that device from a list. It's simple, it's transparent, it's fast and it works. While I agree that Pipewire works great and pretty transparently for single channel capture and multichannel playback, I don't know what happens when you add a 6 channel audio interface and start recording on all of them at the same time.
      - majewsky 1y ago
        Sounds like I need to borrow my friend's Rodecaster for a bit. :)
      - viraptor 1y ago
        Then you should give pipewire a serious go with multiple channels. It's way better than MacOS stack which doesn't really do independent multichannel by default. There's an API for it that some paid apps use that lets you do it. Meanwhile pipewire just lets you connect whatever wherever. I managed with pipewire to get lower latency on Bluetooth headphones than MacOS allows at all. What happens with 6 channels? You just connect them where you want and it works.
- bowsamic 1y ago
  That's the price of freedom. Freedom is worth giving up all of those things
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    The thing is, my Macs work as front ends to my Linux systems. So, there's nothing non-interoperable, or non-removable from these systems. There are some applications with no Linux equivalent, but it's not a MacOS problem, it's a development effort problem.
- viraptor 1y ago
  > Better radios, Other things are good, but radios are wired. Even the latest mbps still can't switch the AP transparently - no mesh support at all it seems.
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    I use my 2014 and 2020 Macs with mesh and old-school multi-ap networks which broadcast same SSID all the time, and I see it as switches APs from the wireless reception bar, without any drop in connectivity. Mesh enabled or not. Interesting.
    - viraptor 1y ago
      2020 is ambiguous - there's both Intel and M1 MBP from that year. I can tell you that M2 can't handle TP-link meshes.
      - bayindirh 1y ago
        Nope, mine is an M1 MBA, and the mesh I have is a TP Link. Both 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands are meshed with OneMesh. Are you running the latest firmware on the TP-Links? I remember their meshes being wonky regardless of the connecting client in the early days.
- ffsm8 1y ago
  Sounds like you want Asahi Linux so you can stay on apple hardware ( . ᴗ . )
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Currently, no, but in the future I might migrate out of support systems to Asahi. One of the reasons I use macOS is I get to inspect how they do some things. I carry the experience to Linux via the small tools I develop. Apple is one of the last "purveyors of magic" when it comes to user interfaces, and studying them, iterating on them and implementing them is both a good learning experience. Also, it feels nice when something you write (with a GPL license no less) has the same magic feeling of frictionless productivity.
  - sussmannbaka 1y ago
    I am keeping a close eye on it for sure. The last time I tried it wasn't quite there yet and still had too many rough edges for my taste.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- devinprater 1y ago
  I wish accessibility was a part of the list. I love MacOS, but accessibility issues turn m away real quick. https://www.applevis.com/comment/188371#comment-188371 https://www.applevis.com/comment/188371#comment-188371
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Accessibility is a really hard topic, and it's very hard to appreciate and sounds/feels backwards if you don't depend on them. Wish more people worked on them, and OS were designed to accommodate accessibility technologies better.
- OldfieldFund 1y ago
  you forgot the touchpad that's better than a mouse
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Yes. The gestures are also great and very natural. Magic mouse is also very intuitive, too. It's a shame that drag-lock is not on by default. It makes life much easier.
    - OldfieldFund 1y ago
      That's true. My wife swears by the Magic Mouse. I love the idea of a mouse that you can make gestures on, but it doesn't fit well in my palm. I have huge hands. It's just too flat and it hurts my hand. Now, my wife has a backup one in case the battery dies.
newdee 1y ago
Then you haven’t lived with a Mac
- ktallett 1y ago
  I have. I had one for over 20 years. They are not what they were.
  - OldfieldFund 1y ago
    Apple Silicon is amazing when it comes to cost-performance and battery life
    - ktallett 1y ago
      I would agree in general for the base model macbook airs, as you go up the range the value just isn't there anymore when in comparison. I still do not see the battery life for my use case. There are too many other flaws for me (repairibility, quality of software decreasing massively, issues with screen quality in everyway bar colour/vibrancy) though that means I won't choose them anymore as much as I adored Apple for many years and am still a fan boy over classic macs.
      - OldfieldFund 1y ago
        MacBook Pro M4 with Pro/Max CPUs are 3-4x faster on multicore benchmarks compared to Air's M4. Air M4 is not enough for my heavy usage of multiple browsers, agents, scripts, and different spinoffs of VS Code at the same time. What's the problem with your battery life? Check which app is draining your battery in Activity Monitor/Energy.

Fairphone and a Framework is just fine. What exactly do you do that suggests there is no alternative? I can see absolutely nothing Apple does that no other laptop can.

bayindirh 1y ago

> I can see absolutely nothing Apple does that no other laptop can. Let me check the list. - High DPI screen with color calibration and automatic white balancing, working 99% of the time. Ensuring your eyes always sees the color it expects without fatigue. Plus, HDR. - Most decent external screens you plug will also have their correct color profile installed on the OS level, so they'll not show funny colors. - 15+ hour battery life on an ordinary laptop if you don't abuse it. Even my M1 can handle me for a couple of days with light usage. - Good quality speakers, decent stereo separation without being too tinny or boomy. - Great quality cameras and microphones for its size. - Great, backlight illuminated keyboard, with no flex. - A realistic 8-10 year usage life without babying it. - A full metal body, and keeping it light for that amount of metal. - Built-in biometrics which runs on a proper secure enclave, without any "touch here, write absurdly long pasword you don't know there" shenanigans of Windows. - A POSIX compliant, BSD descendant OS which can interoperate with Linux way better than Windows. - A proper backup system which backs up whole OS and system state to an external drive, better than old "Windows 7 backup" and miles better than new "OneDrive only Windows Backup". - Better radios, backend and port bandwidth than its class-equivalent machines. Essentially a loaded MacBook Pro is equivalent to a Z-Workstation Mobile from HP. ...and these are standard in almost every MacBook. I don't go through hoops to beg local distributors to build the machine I like via their configuration wizard, and wait them to import it if they feel like it, and pay 3x of its sticker price because it's a one off import tucked inside a bigger shipment. Even CTO devices by Apple are shipped in a week and comes to my door in another 1-2. I pay the sticker price for the device I want. Do you need more? Sent from my Linux desktop system.

ktallett 1y ago
It has some benefits, the battery life (you aren't getting 15 hours from it doing a normal workload), keyboard, cameras, are pretty similar to many other laptops. Linux exists so a pale imitation isn't needed, its not light, and there are plenty of as good if not better back up options. What about the overall quality of the software and hardware being rather poor? No repair-ability, a limited OS now, low quality glass covering the screens, lack of long term support for many laptops now?
- PaulRobinson 1y ago
  You are 100% getting 15 hours from a normal workload. The keyboard is better than any other laptop keyboard. The camera is better than any other laptop integrated webcam. The quality of the software is same or better as Linux (because getting all your Linux desktop and command line software running is a brew install away). The hardware is class leading. The screens are best in class. The laptops will last you 8-10 years and then you can install a Linux on them and keep them going for another 5. Yes, repairability is poor, but improving. I get why people make other choices, but the idea that Apple hardware is poor quality and the software is terrible just isn't the way to do it. Argue about purity of freedom, argue about cost (Apple hardware is expensive, because it's superb), argue about crappy dev account policies like the thread is here to support. But, y'know, don't just make up stuff anybody who uses this stuff daily knows is just made up...
  - ktallett 1y ago
    HP have a better webcam (Higher res and better colours), Z Book and Framework have the same keyboard basically, the software is no where near as good (far more locked down), considering M series have been out for 5 and many had very speedy failures I doubt 8-10 years especially for the base models on low ram. Multicore scores (so for any form of simulation or parallel computing) work M series are not even in the conversation in comparison with the latest AMD and Intel. Another key issue is due to architecture change, their reusability once they become unusable in their current form means its Asahi or nothing. Repairability is non existant, a battery and some ports is not anything to shout about. I have used Macs since the early 90's when they were repairable, pretty much consistently and I still have to on occassion but they have dropped the ball on every aspect. From the late 90's repairability and innovation have gone downhill. The late 00's to the early 10's brought it back and ever since then bar the odd thing that is pretty but less practical, just look at the touch bar and the removal of ports. I have had Thinkpads, ZBooks, and other laptops such as Lets Note easily as long as a macbook and yes some of the pretty may be missing but that isn't what I focus on in devices.
    - bayindirh 1y ago
piva00 1y ago
Also, macOS's audio stack is unmatched, Windows and Linux are an absolute mess for anything audio-related. It's doable on those OSes but very far from a pleasant experience.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Oh, yes, that's very true. I forgot that since I'm not recording for quite some time now.
- majewsky 1y ago
  Asking as a Linux user for whom PipeWire works fine (for recording, live-streaming, as well as playback), what does macOS do better?
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    Latency for the most part. It's almost non-existent and has effectively no visible load on the system. Also, you can plug any advanced interface via USB or Thunderbolt and carry massive amount of audio data just by selecting that device from a list. It's simple, it's transparent, it's fast and it works. While I agree that Pipewire works great and pretty transparently for single channel capture and multichannel playback, I don't know what happens when you add a 6 channel audio interface and start recording on all of them at the same time.
    - majewsky 1y ago
      Sounds like I need to borrow my friend's Rodecaster for a bit. :)
    - viraptor 1y ago
      Then you should give pipewire a serious go with multiple channels. It's way better than MacOS stack which doesn't really do independent multichannel by default. There's an API for it that some paid apps use that lets you do it. Meanwhile pipewire just lets you connect whatever wherever. I managed with pipewire to get lower latency on Bluetooth headphones than MacOS allows at all. What happens with 6 channels? You just connect them where you want and it works.
bowsamic 1y ago
That's the price of freedom. Freedom is worth giving up all of those things
- bayindirh 1y ago
  The thing is, my Macs work as front ends to my Linux systems. So, there's nothing non-interoperable, or non-removable from these systems. There are some applications with no Linux equivalent, but it's not a MacOS problem, it's a development effort problem.
viraptor 1y ago
> Better radios, Other things are good, but radios are wired. Even the latest mbps still can't switch the AP transparently - no mesh support at all it seems.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  I use my 2014 and 2020 Macs with mesh and old-school multi-ap networks which broadcast same SSID all the time, and I see it as switches APs from the wireless reception bar, without any drop in connectivity. Mesh enabled or not. Interesting.
  - viraptor 1y ago
    2020 is ambiguous - there's both Intel and M1 MBP from that year. I can tell you that M2 can't handle TP-link meshes.
    - bayindirh 1y ago
      Nope, mine is an M1 MBA, and the mesh I have is a TP Link. Both 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands are meshed with OneMesh. Are you running the latest firmware on the TP-Links? I remember their meshes being wonky regardless of the connecting client in the early days.
ffsm8 1y ago
Sounds like you want Asahi Linux so you can stay on apple hardware ( . ᴗ . )
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Currently, no, but in the future I might migrate out of support systems to Asahi. One of the reasons I use macOS is I get to inspect how they do some things. I carry the experience to Linux via the small tools I develop. Apple is one of the last "purveyors of magic" when it comes to user interfaces, and studying them, iterating on them and implementing them is both a good learning experience. Also, it feels nice when something you write (with a GPL license no less) has the same magic feeling of frictionless productivity.
- sussmannbaka 1y ago
  I am keeping a close eye on it for sure. The last time I tried it wasn't quite there yet and still had too many rough edges for my taste.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
devinprater 1y ago
I wish accessibility was a part of the list. I love MacOS, but accessibility issues turn m away real quick. https://www.applevis.com/comment/188371#comment-188371 https://www.applevis.com/comment/188371#comment-188371
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Accessibility is a really hard topic, and it's very hard to appreciate and sounds/feels backwards if you don't depend on them. Wish more people worked on them, and OS were designed to accommodate accessibility technologies better.
OldfieldFund 1y ago
you forgot the touchpad that's better than a mouse
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Yes. The gestures are also great and very natural. Magic mouse is also very intuitive, too. It's a shame that drag-lock is not on by default. It makes life much easier.
  - OldfieldFund 1y ago
    That's true. My wife swears by the Magic Mouse. I love the idea of a mouse that you can make gestures on, but it doesn't fit well in my palm. I have huge hands. It's just too flat and it hurts my hand. Now, my wife has a backup one in case the battery dies.

newdee 1y ago

Then you haven’t lived with a Mac

ktallett 1y ago
I have. I had one for over 20 years. They are not what they were.
- OldfieldFund 1y ago
  Apple Silicon is amazing when it comes to cost-performance and battery life
  - ktallett 1y ago
    I would agree in general for the base model macbook airs, as you go up the range the value just isn't there anymore when in comparison. I still do not see the battery life for my use case. There are too many other flaws for me (repairibility, quality of software decreasing massively, issues with screen quality in everyway bar colour/vibrancy) though that means I won't choose them anymore as much as I adored Apple for many years and am still a fan boy over classic macs.
    - OldfieldFund 1y ago
      MacBook Pro M4 with Pro/Max CPUs are 3-4x faster on multicore benchmarks compared to Air's M4. Air M4 is not enough for my heavy usage of multiple browsers, agents, scripts, and different spinoffs of VS Code at the same time. What's the problem with your battery life? Check which app is draining your battery in Activity Monitor/Energy.