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Sure, here are a list of problems that people have come to me to help them solve on Linux machines: 1) Speakers are inexplicably swapped between left and right

Sure, here are a list of problems that people have come to me to help them solve on Linux machines: 1) Speakers are inexplicably swapped between left and right and you have to debug alsa/pulseaudio/pipewire to find out why 2) Bluetooth and WiFi don't work without drivers that require downloading and installing packages manually from different versions of the OS (eg the Ubuntu 22.04 drivers don't work but 21.04 do and that's not documented anywhere, I figured it out by reading logs and googling) 3) some devices or drivers don't work without enabling new kernel modules 4) some devices or drivers don't work without building a driver from source, the official binaries are not usable on a given system 5) sleep doesn't work correctly without manual configuration on command line 6) /etc/default/keyboard must be manually modified with the correct keyboard configuration for the device; the UI can't do it If you think the above are problems a layperson with no computing (and specifically Linux) expertise can solve, you may not be spending a lot of time around actual laypeople.

exe34 1y ago
Now do the same with Windows. The "layperson" can't install Windows or find drivers for unusual devices either. The reason it's often easier on Windows is because the manufacturers took the time to create the image with the required components. That's what you're doing. You're the manufacturer/refurbisher.
- okanat 1y ago
  Windows update automatically installs all drivers nowadays. Once installed all drivers keep working since Windows doesn't break compatibility that often (one can still use Win 7 drivers on Win 11). With Linux any driver compiled from source needs to be rebuilt at each kernel minor release. Some stuff has DKMS some don't. Some vendors keep up with distracted puppy level of change speed in kernel APIs. Most don't. With Linux you have to support your family computers ~each month to pull updates. With Windows all updates are automatic and require 0 remote support.
  - ndriscoll 1y ago
    My sample size is fairly small, but I've not encountered driver issues on anything in the last ~15 years. Most stuff is in tree (IME everything except nvidia), and despite what others report, I've never had an issue with nvidia binary drivers. My desktop with gtx1070 has been running the same installation for 8 years now. Why do you think Linux can't do auto-updates? There's probably a built in option for your distribution, but if not, just run your update command on a timer. Phones and ARM land seem to be a disaster of hardware support, but x86 PCs/laptops have all worked great for me.
    - okanat 1y ago
      > Why do you think Linux can't do auto-updates? Because they literally cannot. Linux package managers like to ask deeply technical questions. Even on Ubuntu dpkg will occasionally ask about configuration file changes and expect you to make decisions like keeping the existing one, replacing the config file with the new one or editing it. Windows never asks such questions. Its configs are relatively stable and usually Windows uses more formally defined forms like registry or XML files. They are much easier to write migration scripts for than human readable text files on Linux. As far as I know even packages like `unattended-upgrades` from Ubuntu doesn't perform things like kernel upgrades which requires `apt dist-upgrade`. They are required for keeping good security. And forget about upgrading an actual version like from 24.04 to 24.10. On Windows upgrades from 24H1 to 24H2 are relatively painless and can easily rolled back. My Ubuntu running colleagues had to rescue their distros at least twice since a version upgrade went wrong.
      - m4rtink 1y ago
        That is a Debian/Ubuntu deb package quirk - RPM installation on Fedora/RHEL/OpenSUSE is fully non-interactive, as it should be. So not only are less technical users not confused, but you will never return only to see a system upgrade stuck on some useless interactive prompt from a deb package.
        okanat 1y ago
- ivraatiems 1y ago
  The difference is that with Windows, once you have the machine working, it tends to stay working. With Linux, these are problems that occur after installation and often after sale to the customer. Linux simply takes up a disproportionate amount of my time compared to Windows. But your original skepticism was that these problems happen at all, and it sounds like now we agree they do, so I guess that's that.
  - exe34 1y ago
    > with Windows, once you have the machine working, it tends to stay working In what world?! > Linux simply takes up a disproportionate amount of my time compared to Windows. I think maybe you just happened to learn to set up Windows first and then you insist on doing the exact same thing on Linux. If you learnt Linux first, you'd find Windows infuriating. > With Linux, these are problems that occur after installation Mine has been working since 2016. Never formatted or anything like that. Just kept updating nixos.
    - ivraatiems 1y ago
      > I think maybe you just happened to learn to set up Windows first and then you insist on doing the exact same thing on Linux. If you learnt Linux first, you'd find Windows infuriating. I'm just sort of confused by this comment. Honestly, I'm confused by a lot of this comment chain. It doesn't feel like you understand or appreciate the circumstances under which I operate. I'm running a business. I'm setting up machines for customers. This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal preferences. I'm a Linux user of nearly two decades. That does not matter. My job is to deliver a useful experience for my customers. Windows offers that more reliably than Linux does. My personal opinions don't enter into it; the implication that I don't know how to set up a Linux machine is just false. Likewise, that we can produce one Linux machine under the control of an expert such as yourself that works well is not proof that this will work for consumers. I see that you and a lot of other folks in this thread feel a strong loyalty to Linux and a desire to drive people towards it. There's nothing wrong with that. But insisting up is down isn't going to do it, and that's what this communication feels like.
GoblinSlayer 1y ago
At least on linux such bugs are fixable in theory, on windows they are unfixable even by experts.

exe34 1y ago

Now do the same with Windows. The "layperson" can't install Windows or find drivers for unusual devices either. The reason it's often easier on Windows is because the manufacturers took the time to create the image with the required components. That's what you're doing. You're the manufacturer/refurbisher.

okanat 1y ago
Windows update automatically installs all drivers nowadays. Once installed all drivers keep working since Windows doesn't break compatibility that often (one can still use Win 7 drivers on Win 11). With Linux any driver compiled from source needs to be rebuilt at each kernel minor release. Some stuff has DKMS some don't. Some vendors keep up with distracted puppy level of change speed in kernel APIs. Most don't. With Linux you have to support your family computers ~each month to pull updates. With Windows all updates are automatic and require 0 remote support.
- ndriscoll 1y ago
  My sample size is fairly small, but I've not encountered driver issues on anything in the last ~15 years. Most stuff is in tree (IME everything except nvidia), and despite what others report, I've never had an issue with nvidia binary drivers. My desktop with gtx1070 has been running the same installation for 8 years now. Why do you think Linux can't do auto-updates? There's probably a built in option for your distribution, but if not, just run your update command on a timer. Phones and ARM land seem to be a disaster of hardware support, but x86 PCs/laptops have all worked great for me.
  - okanat 1y ago
    > Why do you think Linux can't do auto-updates? Because they literally cannot. Linux package managers like to ask deeply technical questions. Even on Ubuntu dpkg will occasionally ask about configuration file changes and expect you to make decisions like keeping the existing one, replacing the config file with the new one or editing it. Windows never asks such questions. Its configs are relatively stable and usually Windows uses more formally defined forms like registry or XML files. They are much easier to write migration scripts for than human readable text files on Linux. As far as I know even packages like `unattended-upgrades` from Ubuntu doesn't perform things like kernel upgrades which requires `apt dist-upgrade`. They are required for keeping good security. And forget about upgrading an actual version like from 24.04 to 24.10. On Windows upgrades from 24H1 to 24H2 are relatively painless and can easily rolled back. My Ubuntu running colleagues had to rescue their distros at least twice since a version upgrade went wrong.
    - m4rtink 1y ago
      That is a Debian/Ubuntu deb package quirk - RPM installation on Fedora/RHEL/OpenSUSE is fully non-interactive, as it should be. So not only are less technical users not confused, but you will never return only to see a system upgrade stuck on some useless interactive prompt from a deb package.
      - okanat 1y ago
ivraatiems 1y ago
The difference is that with Windows, once you have the machine working, it tends to stay working. With Linux, these are problems that occur after installation and often after sale to the customer. Linux simply takes up a disproportionate amount of my time compared to Windows. But your original skepticism was that these problems happen at all, and it sounds like now we agree they do, so I guess that's that.
- exe34 1y ago
  > with Windows, once you have the machine working, it tends to stay working In what world?! > Linux simply takes up a disproportionate amount of my time compared to Windows. I think maybe you just happened to learn to set up Windows first and then you insist on doing the exact same thing on Linux. If you learnt Linux first, you'd find Windows infuriating. > With Linux, these are problems that occur after installation Mine has been working since 2016. Never formatted or anything like that. Just kept updating nixos.
  - ivraatiems 1y ago
    > I think maybe you just happened to learn to set up Windows first and then you insist on doing the exact same thing on Linux. If you learnt Linux first, you'd find Windows infuriating. I'm just sort of confused by this comment. Honestly, I'm confused by a lot of this comment chain. It doesn't feel like you understand or appreciate the circumstances under which I operate. I'm running a business. I'm setting up machines for customers. This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal preferences. I'm a Linux user of nearly two decades. That does not matter. My job is to deliver a useful experience for my customers. Windows offers that more reliably than Linux does. My personal opinions don't enter into it; the implication that I don't know how to set up a Linux machine is just false. Likewise, that we can produce one Linux machine under the control of an expert such as yourself that works well is not proof that this will work for consumers. I see that you and a lot of other folks in this thread feel a strong loyalty to Linux and a desire to drive people towards it. There's nothing wrong with that. But insisting up is down isn't going to do it, and that's what this communication feels like.

GoblinSlayer 1y ago

At least on linux such bugs are fixable in theory, on windows they are unfixable even by experts.