8 ms·

I disagree with the framing of running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware as an undesirable option compared to desktop Linux, for several reasons. For context,

I disagree with the framing of running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware as an undesirable option compared to desktop Linux, for several reasons. For context, I have several years' experience in the recycled and refurbished computer market and I regularly sell machines with Linux, ChromeOS Flex, Windows 11 on supported hardware, and Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics. The problem is not that they're not usable when things are working right. The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. ChromeOS Flex is a partial solution, as many people are familiar with it, but it is useless on a lot of hardware due to lack of drivers and is not a good fit for more powerful machines. On the other hand, if you install Windows 11 on a machine that doesn't support it, you get all security updates for the next year, and all the drivers you need are typically present in Windows Update. In situations where there is a need for legacy drivers, they usually work after a simple install. I have installed Windows 11 on systems from 2011 and 2012 and had it work flawlessly, and fast enough for basic use. Windows 11 itself isn't perfect, but moving from 10 to 11 is nowhere near the complexity of moving from 10 to Linux. Of course, the big issue is that after that year of security updates, one has to manually download the next "feature update" and install it to get another year of updates. This isn't hard to do per se, but it's approaching the kind of complexity that the average person isn't going to navigate smoothly. I don't have a great solution for this yet, though I am thinking about one. For now, I just include disclaimers and documentation about what to do to make things easier. Even so, compared to something like a Linux major version upgrade, this is quite straightforward. There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go.

garbagepatch 1y ago
What is unsupported hardware in this context? Machines without TPM 2.0?
- yourusername 1y ago
  It's not just TPM 2.0, you also need a supported CPU. Everything before Intel 8th gen and Zen+ (including 1st gen Ryzen) is not supported even if you have TPM 2.0
genocidicbunny 1y ago
Can you actually install W11 on a machine that doesn't support TPM2? Iirc, Microsoft recently-ish got rid of the workarounds that allowed installation on machines that don't support TPM2. If there is still another workaround, I'd love to know about it (and especially if it requires a Microsoft account or can be done 'offline') since my daily driver doesn't have TPM2. Also, what sorts of machines are you installing W11 on that are 'unsupported'? My daily driver initially came with W8.1 and for a while, I couldn't update to W10 because there were no W10 wifi drivers available; The manually-installed 8.1 ones were extremely flakey. And this isn't some no-name laptop too, it's a Thinkpad which you'd think would be well supported.
- yourusername 1y ago
  Last i checked you can still use DISM to apply a image to the local drive, this bypasses the installer completely.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  A Windows 11 24H2 ISO will install on a machine w/o a TPM 2.0 module using the command line argument "/Product Server". (You can do this as either an "upgrade" to Windows 10 or on a clean machine by using the Shift-F10 shortcut to get a command prompt and run the setup from there.) I'm on mobile and don't have a reference handy but search-engine this and you'll find instructions.
  - genocidicbunny 1y ago
    Thanks. Hopefully if there's a 25H1 or 25H2 they will also support this, since my plan is to hold onto W10 until the end of the year.
    - EvanAnderson 1y ago
      I'd snag a 24H2 ISO. If the bypass functionality is removed from future releases you can always install from the older ISO and update to the current version. I think it's highly unlikely they'll push an update breaking already-installed unsupported PCs. That would garner so much bad press.
supriyo-biswas 1y ago
You could also just run W10/11 LTSC; W10 LTSC is supported till 2032.
- creatonez 1y ago
  Not for refurbishing, at least in countries where Microsoft copyright is enforced. You won't be able to get it legally because it's licensed for IoT use cases. Whereas if you go the Win11 Home/Pro route, there's a good chance you'll be able to convert the existing license from Win8/10
  - ivraatiems 1y ago
    This is correct. Many (not all) machines with Windows 7 or greater OEM licenses will install Windows 11 without asking for a key. And when they do need a key, I use refurbisher/reseller keys that are pretty cheap to get and while they might be gray market, they are much more legal than using an LTSC key on a non-LTSC device.
exe34 1y ago
> The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. There are two claims here: 1. these problems are harder to solve on Linux 2. these problems happen more often on Linux. I'd really like to see some actual studies of this, because I suspect they are both bullshit.
- ivraatiems 1y ago
  Sure, here are a list of problems that people have come to me to help them solve on Linux machines: 1) Speakers are inexplicably swapped between left and right and you have to debug alsa/pulseaudio/pipewire to find out why 2) Bluetooth and WiFi don't work without drivers that require downloading and installing packages manually from different versions of the OS (eg the Ubuntu 22.04 drivers don't work but 21.04 do and that's not documented anywhere, I figured it out by reading logs and googling) 3) some devices or drivers don't work without enabling new kernel modules 4) some devices or drivers don't work without building a driver from source, the official binaries are not usable on a given system 5) sleep doesn't work correctly without manual configuration on command line 6) /etc/default/keyboard must be manually modified with the correct keyboard configuration for the device; the UI can't do it If you think the above are problems a layperson with no computing (and specifically Linux) expertise can solve, you may not be spending a lot of time around actual laypeople.
  - exe34 1y ago
    Now do the same with Windows. The "layperson" can't install Windows or find drivers for unusual devices either. The reason it's often easier on Windows is because the manufacturers took the time to create the image with the required components. That's what you're doing. You're the manufacturer/refurbisher.
    - okanat 1y ago
      Windows update automatically installs all drivers nowadays. Once installed all drivers keep working since Windows doesn't break compatibility that often (one can still use Win 7 drivers on Win 11). With Linux any driver compiled from source needs to be rebuilt at each kernel minor release. Some stuff has DKMS some don't. Some vendors keep up with distracted puppy level of change speed in kernel APIs. Most don't. With Linux you have to support your family computers ~each month to pull updates. With Windows all updates are automatic and require 0 remote support.
pjmlp 1y ago
Once upon a time, I installed a quite usable version of Ubuntu, nicely configured on my parents computer. Exactly because "vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics.", the first time they got into issues instead of doing the "call the son IT support", they went to the nearest PC store and got Windows reinstalled. I was suddenly surprised during the next parents visit to find Windows again on that computer. Since then, I rather have the local PC store support them, than me, and then also don't really care about GNU/Linux based systems, only whatever runs OSes from Microsoft, Apple and Google. It isn't as if I am flying back to Portugal every weekend to do support, or find out how to make GNU/Linux actually fit their computer needs, and software needed by Portuguese goverment, banks and co.
- sandworm101 1y ago
  Until the next windows update changes everything. I had my parent ran Linux for 15+ years because, unlike windows/Mac, the user interface didn't change every other year. Some 'simple' users prioritize stability over ready access to geek squad. (If you have dementia, even a changed wallpaper can be a big deal. Popups with "new feature" or rando security notices are not helpful.)
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    And I guess you were down the street to keep it running when support was needed, and did not install either GNOME or KDE, which have had several UI changes throughout the years. None of the PC stores on my hometown cares about GNU/Linux, but at least it is a known place that they can reach for, and I don't have to fly back home for support.
    - paulryanrogers 1y ago
      Doesn't RockyLinux get like 10y for each major release? That should be enough for them. If they need another ten then perhaps the next version can mimic the previous.
  - 1y ago
GoblinSlayer 1y ago
The vast majority of people only use the very basics - web.
kodarna 1y ago
Laypeople don't install operating systems. As long as they get help to set up Linux with working drivers and configuration, the rest of Linux is actually easier because it doesn't change default browsers, add unwanted applications, pop-ups with scary text etc unlike Windows. I've had a great experience putting my computer illiterate mother on Linux Mint. I've never had to help her once with the operating system or programs (she only uses Firefox and an IPTV application) whereas Windows was a mess at times.
- 0xEF 1y ago
  Linux is the answer. I have transitioned coworkers, friends and family to Linux with PeppermintOS, so that's the one I typically recommend. Windows-dependent users seem to find it more friendly and familiar, and it runs nicely on every old machine I've installed it on. I usually just make a text file on the desktop with instructions on how to update it via the terminal and use Anydesk to walk them through anything else they want to learn, and they pick up on it quickly. I appreciate the blog's efforts, but it seems like a lot of work and feels akin to staying with an abusive employer or something. Microsoft is no friend to its users and it pains me to watch people try to salvage that relationship.
salviati 1y ago
> The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics I have decades of experience in being "the computer guy" with some friends and family. My reality is different. My reality is that people find Linux easier to use than Windows. In my reality people are not happy to see the UI change radically across versions. With Linux I can always find a DE that is similar to what they used to have (see cynnamon, for example). > The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire I have the opposite experience: I had some acquintances go through forum posts and apply the solutions suggested there, all on their own, to my great surprise. Instead, when someone says to me they have a problem with their Windows computer, I answer that they're too complicated: I don't know how to put my hands on them. If I search online it's very hard to wade through the vague suggestions, the "reinstall", "reboot" that never give you any additional knowledge after you've solved the problem. In my reality your sentence applies to Windows, not to Linux. > A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. What are you comparing? "A machine designed for windows" vs what? I believe you meant "windows". New hardware on Linux is way easier than Windows. New printer? You connect it and it just works. Wifi dongle? Same. The way you talk about it sounds like 1999 Linux to me. > There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go. My main reason is this: GNU/Linux is built for the user. You as the user are the master. Windows is built to extract value from people using computers. Sometimes they (Microsoft) decide you're not in charge; for instance when you tell the computer to shut down, and the computer replies with "I'm installing updates, don't shut me down". And maybe it's a laptop. And maybe I'm off to take a train, and I'm about to be late. I even read that windows embeds ads. In the OS. How is this remotely acceptable? I recently went to an open event where researchers were showing their work to people/kids, and I noticed how they all use windows. That made me sad. I think misinformation is the main thing holding Linux back. I believe you're believing and spreading misinformation in good faith.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  > I even read that windows embeds ads. In the OS. How is this remotely acceptable? The same way FOSS projects, and Linux distros happen to do, because they need the money. https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381 https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381 https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw8bbugc6v3751.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw... https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-placing-ads/ https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-plac...

garbagepatch 1y ago

What is unsupported hardware in this context? Machines without TPM 2.0?

yourusername 1y ago
It's not just TPM 2.0, you also need a supported CPU. Everything before Intel 8th gen and Zen+ (including 1st gen Ryzen) is not supported even if you have TPM 2.0

genocidicbunny 1y ago

Can you actually install W11 on a machine that doesn't support TPM2? Iirc, Microsoft recently-ish got rid of the workarounds that allowed installation on machines that don't support TPM2. If there is still another workaround, I'd love to know about it (and especially if it requires a Microsoft account or can be done 'offline') since my daily driver doesn't have TPM2. Also, what sorts of machines are you installing W11 on that are 'unsupported'? My daily driver initially came with W8.1 and for a while, I couldn't update to W10 because there were no W10 wifi drivers available; The manually-installed 8.1 ones were extremely flakey. And this isn't some no-name laptop too, it's a Thinkpad which you'd think would be well supported.

yourusername 1y ago
Last i checked you can still use DISM to apply a image to the local drive, this bypasses the installer completely.
EvanAnderson 1y ago
A Windows 11 24H2 ISO will install on a machine w/o a TPM 2.0 module using the command line argument "/Product Server". (You can do this as either an "upgrade" to Windows 10 or on a clean machine by using the Shift-F10 shortcut to get a command prompt and run the setup from there.) I'm on mobile and don't have a reference handy but search-engine this and you'll find instructions.
- genocidicbunny 1y ago
  Thanks. Hopefully if there's a 25H1 or 25H2 they will also support this, since my plan is to hold onto W10 until the end of the year.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    I'd snag a 24H2 ISO. If the bypass functionality is removed from future releases you can always install from the older ISO and update to the current version. I think it's highly unlikely they'll push an update breaking already-installed unsupported PCs. That would garner so much bad press.

supriyo-biswas 1y ago

You could also just run W10/11 LTSC; W10 LTSC is supported till 2032.

creatonez 1y ago
Not for refurbishing, at least in countries where Microsoft copyright is enforced. You won't be able to get it legally because it's licensed for IoT use cases. Whereas if you go the Win11 Home/Pro route, there's a good chance you'll be able to convert the existing license from Win8/10
- ivraatiems 1y ago
  This is correct. Many (not all) machines with Windows 7 or greater OEM licenses will install Windows 11 without asking for a key. And when they do need a key, I use refurbisher/reseller keys that are pretty cheap to get and while they might be gray market, they are much more legal than using an LTSC key on a non-LTSC device.

exe34 1y ago

> The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. There are two claims here: 1. these problems are harder to solve on Linux 2. these problems happen more often on Linux. I'd really like to see some actual studies of this, because I suspect they are both bullshit.

ivraatiems 1y ago
Sure, here are a list of problems that people have come to me to help them solve on Linux machines: 1) Speakers are inexplicably swapped between left and right and you have to debug alsa/pulseaudio/pipewire to find out why 2) Bluetooth and WiFi don't work without drivers that require downloading and installing packages manually from different versions of the OS (eg the Ubuntu 22.04 drivers don't work but 21.04 do and that's not documented anywhere, I figured it out by reading logs and googling) 3) some devices or drivers don't work without enabling new kernel modules 4) some devices or drivers don't work without building a driver from source, the official binaries are not usable on a given system 5) sleep doesn't work correctly without manual configuration on command line 6) /etc/default/keyboard must be manually modified with the correct keyboard configuration for the device; the UI can't do it If you think the above are problems a layperson with no computing (and specifically Linux) expertise can solve, you may not be spending a lot of time around actual laypeople.
- exe34 1y ago
  Now do the same with Windows. The "layperson" can't install Windows or find drivers for unusual devices either. The reason it's often easier on Windows is because the manufacturers took the time to create the image with the required components. That's what you're doing. You're the manufacturer/refurbisher.
  - okanat 1y ago
    Windows update automatically installs all drivers nowadays. Once installed all drivers keep working since Windows doesn't break compatibility that often (one can still use Win 7 drivers on Win 11). With Linux any driver compiled from source needs to be rebuilt at each kernel minor release. Some stuff has DKMS some don't. Some vendors keep up with distracted puppy level of change speed in kernel APIs. Most don't. With Linux you have to support your family computers ~each month to pull updates. With Windows all updates are automatic and require 0 remote support.

pjmlp 1y ago

Once upon a time, I installed a quite usable version of Ubuntu, nicely configured on my parents computer. Exactly because "vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics.", the first time they got into issues instead of doing the "call the son IT support", they went to the nearest PC store and got Windows reinstalled. I was suddenly surprised during the next parents visit to find Windows again on that computer. Since then, I rather have the local PC store support them, than me, and then also don't really care about GNU/Linux based systems, only whatever runs OSes from Microsoft, Apple and Google. It isn't as if I am flying back to Portugal every weekend to do support, or find out how to make GNU/Linux actually fit their computer needs, and software needed by Portuguese goverment, banks and co.

sandworm101 1y ago
Until the next windows update changes everything. I had my parent ran Linux for 15+ years because, unlike windows/Mac, the user interface didn't change every other year. Some 'simple' users prioritize stability over ready access to geek squad. (If you have dementia, even a changed wallpaper can be a big deal. Popups with "new feature" or rando security notices are not helpful.)
- pjmlp 1y ago
  And I guess you were down the street to keep it running when support was needed, and did not install either GNOME or KDE, which have had several UI changes throughout the years. None of the PC stores on my hometown cares about GNU/Linux, but at least it is a known place that they can reach for, and I don't have to fly back home for support.
  - paulryanrogers 1y ago
    Doesn't RockyLinux get like 10y for each major release? That should be enough for them. If they need another ten then perhaps the next version can mimic the previous.
- 1y ago

GoblinSlayer 1y ago

The vast majority of people only use the very basics - web.

kodarna 1y ago

Laypeople don't install operating systems. As long as they get help to set up Linux with working drivers and configuration, the rest of Linux is actually easier because it doesn't change default browsers, add unwanted applications, pop-ups with scary text etc unlike Windows. I've had a great experience putting my computer illiterate mother on Linux Mint. I've never had to help her once with the operating system or programs (she only uses Firefox and an IPTV application) whereas Windows was a mess at times.

0xEF 1y ago
Linux is the answer. I have transitioned coworkers, friends and family to Linux with PeppermintOS, so that's the one I typically recommend. Windows-dependent users seem to find it more friendly and familiar, and it runs nicely on every old machine I've installed it on. I usually just make a text file on the desktop with instructions on how to update it via the terminal and use Anydesk to walk them through anything else they want to learn, and they pick up on it quickly. I appreciate the blog's efforts, but it seems like a lot of work and feels akin to staying with an abusive employer or something. Microsoft is no friend to its users and it pains me to watch people try to salvage that relationship.

salviati 1y ago

> The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics I have decades of experience in being "the computer guy" with some friends and family. My reality is different. My reality is that people find Linux easier to use than Windows. In my reality people are not happy to see the UI change radically across versions. With Linux I can always find a DE that is similar to what they used to have (see cynnamon, for example). > The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire I have the opposite experience: I had some acquintances go through forum posts and apply the solutions suggested there, all on their own, to my great surprise. Instead, when someone says to me they have a problem with their Windows computer, I answer that they're too complicated: I don't know how to put my hands on them. If I search online it's very hard to wade through the vague suggestions, the "reinstall", "reboot" that never give you any additional knowledge after you've solved the problem. In my reality your sentence applies to Windows, not to Linux. > A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. What are you comparing? "A machine designed for windows" vs what? I believe you meant "windows". New hardware on Linux is way easier than Windows. New printer? You connect it and it just works. Wifi dongle? Same. The way you talk about it sounds like 1999 Linux to me. > There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go. My main reason is this: GNU/Linux is built for the user. You as the user are the master. Windows is built to extract value from people using computers. Sometimes they (Microsoft) decide you're not in charge; for instance when you tell the computer to shut down, and the computer replies with "I'm installing updates, don't shut me down". And maybe it's a laptop. And maybe I'm off to take a train, and I'm about to be late. I even read that windows embeds ads. In the OS. How is this remotely acceptable? I recently went to an open event where researchers were showing their work to people/kids, and I noticed how they all use windows. That made me sad. I think misinformation is the main thing holding Linux back. I believe you're believing and spreading misinformation in good faith.

pjmlp 1y ago
> I even read that windows embeds ads. In the OS. How is this remotely acceptable? The same way FOSS projects, and Linux distros happen to do, because they need the money. https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381 https://github.com/standard/standard/issues/1381 https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw8bbugc6v3751.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fw... https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-placing-ads/ https://linuxiac.com/ubuntu-once-again-angered-users-by-plac...