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If you're making that 12% exploitatively (which most ludicrously-high-interest "investments" are), that's a net harm for society. (A smaller-scale example, to a

If you're making that 12% exploitatively (which most ludicrously-high-interest "investments" are), that's a net harm for society. (A smaller-scale example, to aid with intuition: there once was a lung cancer charity which funded the promotion of cigarettes, to increase the dividends of cigarette stocks, so they had more resources with which to help lung cancer victims.) Money isn't real: it's an abstraction. What it's an abstraction for, on the other hand, is very real. Don't confuse the map and the territory.

WalterBright 1y ago
Higher returns always come with higher risk. This is not exploitation, nor do high risk investments harm society. Musk, for example, invested hundreds of millions into Tesla, his entire fortune. Soon afterwards, he was within hours of personal and business bankruptcy. SpaceX also was one explosion away from total bankruptcy. Say what you will about Musk, the man has a lot of guts. Without those guts, there'd be no Tesla and no SpaceX and no Starlink.
Nasrudith 1y ago
How is 'exploitatively' defined? I have seen it used as 'literally anything that makes a profit is exploitation by definition' crap used unironically often enough that 'exploitation' itself has become a major red flag (no pun intended). Those users of such definitions just love those sorts of tautologies disguised as logic as it makes for a nice and orderly world view to be able to make baseless and frankly, batshit insane assumptions. Like 12% returns being only possible through net harm to society. It is perfectly normal for a successful small business to have a ROI of 25% to 40%.
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  Right: a successful small business where people are doing actual work can have a potentially-unbounded ROI. "Money makes money" schemes, on the other hand… the situations where access to money is genuinely worth 12% returns to someone are slim. (If it's a high-risk venture, then that's not 12% returns in expectation: "loan that we'll write off if your venture fails" is providing actual value, under certain circumstances.) Scams, cons, grifts, and destructive exploitation of common resources, on the other hand? Those can get massive numbers of monies out for every single number of money in. So that's where my mind goes, when someone talks about "make 12% on [a pile of cash]".

WalterBright 1y ago

Higher returns always come with higher risk. This is not exploitation, nor do high risk investments harm society. Musk, for example, invested hundreds of millions into Tesla, his entire fortune. Soon afterwards, he was within hours of personal and business bankruptcy. SpaceX also was one explosion away from total bankruptcy. Say what you will about Musk, the man has a lot of guts. Without those guts, there'd be no Tesla and no SpaceX and no Starlink.

Nasrudith 1y ago

How is 'exploitatively' defined? I have seen it used as 'literally anything that makes a profit is exploitation by definition' crap used unironically often enough that 'exploitation' itself has become a major red flag (no pun intended). Those users of such definitions just love those sorts of tautologies disguised as logic as it makes for a nice and orderly world view to be able to make baseless and frankly, batshit insane assumptions. Like 12% returns being only possible through net harm to society. It is perfectly normal for a successful small business to have a ROI of 25% to 40%.

wizzwizz4 1y ago
Right: a successful small business where people are doing actual work can have a potentially-unbounded ROI. "Money makes money" schemes, on the other hand… the situations where access to money is genuinely worth 12% returns to someone are slim. (If it's a high-risk venture, then that's not 12% returns in expectation: "loan that we'll write off if your venture fails" is providing actual value, under certain circumstances.) Scams, cons, grifts, and destructive exploitation of common resources, on the other hand? Those can get massive numbers of monies out for every single number of money in. So that's where my mind goes, when someone talks about "make 12% on [a pile of cash]".