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> ~ Original and Menthol I'll never understand why adults partaking in a particular vice can't enjoy different flavours (unless the vice is alcohol).

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
The candy flavors were marketed to children.
- chucksta 1y ago
  Who is 99 banana's and maddog 20/20 marketed to?
  - esseph 1y ago
    Please tell me who MD 20/20 is marketing to, I would love to know.
    - chucksta 1y ago
      I don't know. But they clearly don't have a lot of money, a refined pallet, and don't mind crazy flavors. Everyone I know seemed to have tried it in a particular time in their lives, and oddly they don't seem to drink it anymore.
  - hellotomyrars 1y ago
    To be fair 99 Bananas still tastes like ass with a hint of incredible artificial banana. Also the cultural aspect is just different. It is generally harder for kids to get alcohol in my experience and also you (usually) don’t carry a bottle of 99 bananas and swig it every few minutes out in public. Perhaps most importantly is that alcohol doesn’t contain nicotine. People get addicted to alcohol but not in the same way people get addicted to nicotine.
- whycome 1y ago
  ban the marketing to children. or limit the ads to in between all the ads for the different betting platforms.
  - LeifCarrotson 1y ago
    Regulators have no control over who looks at a given billboard or television ad. It's a new phenomenon that they might (might) be able to tell TikTok or Youtube to estimate the age of individual viewers and limit which topics can appear in advertisements to different age groups. The existence of the candy flavors and any public marketing of those flavors (even on the label in the store aisle) is implicitly marketing to children.
  - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    They were banned before vapes existed. That's why the cartoon characters are gone. They still intentionally made it appealing to children.
doctorpangloss 1y ago
Alcohol is no exception, Fourloco was banned!
- jjice 1y ago
  I believe that was for the high alcohol content mixed with the high caffeine content
  - doctorpangloss 1y ago
    the point is that as far as they are permitted to be sold and consumed with regulations for largely cultural reasons, alcohol and tobacco are both subject to cultural (fluid) regulations, and inconsistencies between them are a matter of the speed and power of diffuse cultural forces, not some sort of big conspiracy against libertarians
- chucksta 1y ago
  Its still for sale, just without caffeine
Freak_NL 1y ago
Do you mean why vapes aren't allowed to be sold in exciting flavours in a lot of countries? Because what happened there was that 'strawberry kiwi', 'banana ice', and 'miami mint', and whatever fruity flavour in a colourful package you can come up with, turned vaping from something adults did to quit smoking tobacco into the biggest hype amongst teenagers since fidget spinners. Only they get addicted to nicotine as a bonus, and switch to 'proper' tobacco in their senior years. Even with a complete ban on those the damage is done, and all across the globe society is now dealing with a huge profitable underground Snapchat-enabled market geared solely at selling the equivalent of a pack-a-day habit in nicotine to kids. (The ban helps to gradually denormalise vaping again, so it is good to have in place.)
- cwmoore 1y ago
  Central planning saviors to the rescue, keeping everyone safe from themselves or else in jail or public supervision. So no, it is not "good to have in place".
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  nobody switches to proper tobacco, only from it. nice try tho
- skybrian 1y ago
  Interesting, what evidence is there that people switch from e-cigarettes to tobacco? I hadn’t heard of that before.
  - silverquiet 1y ago
    Every single person I've known who switched from tobacco to e-cigarettes has switched back to tobacco. They all say it's better for one reason or another.
    - meepmorp 1y ago
      Former smokers switching back is one thing, but how often do people start out with vaping and then move to smoking tobacco?
evanjrowley 1y ago
Various U.S. institutions of authority took the position that flavors were not for adults, but instead, a strategy to attract minors. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/why-youth-vape.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/why-youth-vape.html https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/ctp-newsroom/misleadingly-labeled-e-liquids-appeal-youth https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/ctp-newsroom/misleading... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6663555/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6663555/ https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/05/ftc-fda-take-action-against-companies-marketing-e-liquids-resemble-childrens-juice-boxes-candies https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/05/... https://www.drugs.com/news/study-finds-powerful-sweetener-vapes-marketed-teens-125222.html https://www.drugs.com/news/study-finds-powerful-sweetener-va...
- nashashmi 1y ago
  And https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/menthol-tobacco/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/menthol-tobacco/index.html
- 827a 1y ago
  No, they took the stance that this crusade against good flavors should specifically and only apply to Juul. Maybe deservedly given Juul's behavior in marketing to teenagers. Today, you can go to gas stations in most states and buy Cherry Ice Lemonade Cotton Candy Mr Fog vapes, or Geekbars, or whatever brand shipped straight from China is popular this month. To be honest, even if Juul were allowed to bring Mango back, I'm not sure anyone would buy it; compared to the actual desserts you can smoke today, Juul Mango doesn't hold a candle. In other words: Our government utterly decimated an American company just to make room in the market for Chinese competitors to dominate.
  - evanjrowley 1y ago
    Would this not be due to the unfortunate reality that litigation and enforcement can be carried out against domestic companies more effectively than foreign ones?
- dmix 1y ago
Barrin92 1y ago
>unless the vice is alcohol there is no exception to alcohol for this. Anybody who was a teenager or older in the aughts remembers "alcopops" (might have had a different name depending on where you're from). Lots of countries regulated or raised taxes on mixed drinks because they were seen (probably justifiably so) as targeting teenagers. In Germany it resulted in Smirnoff Ice and some Bacardi mix drink largely going off the shelves.
LeifCarrotson 1y ago
Rules around fruity flavors (trying to target sales that disproportionately go to kids) are one thing. Rules around menthol are another, only slightly less heinous thing. About 85% of African Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes, compared to a rate of less than 30% menthol use among white Americans. [1] They're disproportionately advertised and were (in the past) literally given away in poor Black communities to get people addicted. Basically, policy makers can target their regulations to a specific group by specifying flavor. Sure, an individual white adult might like fruity flavors or menthols, a black adult might like originals, and some kids might prefer original or menthols, but there's a strong statistical bias. When health departments are trying to address a particular health concern - say, young children smoking - they can do so by targeting fruity flavors. Conversely, when tobacco company marketing departments are trying to advertise their products to Black users without drawing unwanted attention from disproportionately white regulators, they can achieve their goals by promoting menthols. An individual from any population might have any flavor preference, but the dice are shockingly heavily weighted when you're looking at large groups. [1]: https://datatools.samhsa.gov/das/nsduh/2019/nsduh-2019-ds0001/crosstab?column=NEWRACE2&control=CATAGE_RECODE&filter=CIG30MEN!%3D91%2C93%2C94%2C97%2C98%26CATAGE_RECODE%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult&recodes=CATAGE_RECODE%7C1%3DRecoded_New_Category_youth%262%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult%263%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult%264%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult&results_received=true&row=CIG30MEN&run_chisq=false&weight=ANALWT_C https://datatools.samhsa.gov/das/nsduh/2019/nsduh-2019-ds000...
jajuuka 1y ago
Because of the belief that making them desirable to adults is a method to sell them to kids. It also makes them less desirable which keeps cigarette sales up. Tobacco lobby is still going strong with its influence.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago

The candy flavors were marketed to children.

chucksta 1y ago
Who is 99 banana's and maddog 20/20 marketed to?
- esseph 1y ago
  Please tell me who MD 20/20 is marketing to, I would love to know.
  - chucksta 1y ago
    I don't know. But they clearly don't have a lot of money, a refined pallet, and don't mind crazy flavors. Everyone I know seemed to have tried it in a particular time in their lives, and oddly they don't seem to drink it anymore.
- hellotomyrars 1y ago
  To be fair 99 Bananas still tastes like ass with a hint of incredible artificial banana. Also the cultural aspect is just different. It is generally harder for kids to get alcohol in my experience and also you (usually) don’t carry a bottle of 99 bananas and swig it every few minutes out in public. Perhaps most importantly is that alcohol doesn’t contain nicotine. People get addicted to alcohol but not in the same way people get addicted to nicotine.
whycome 1y ago
ban the marketing to children. or limit the ads to in between all the ads for the different betting platforms.
- LeifCarrotson 1y ago
  Regulators have no control over who looks at a given billboard or television ad. It's a new phenomenon that they might (might) be able to tell TikTok or Youtube to estimate the age of individual viewers and limit which topics can appear in advertisements to different age groups. The existence of the candy flavors and any public marketing of those flavors (even on the label in the store aisle) is implicitly marketing to children.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  They were banned before vapes existed. That's why the cartoon characters are gone. They still intentionally made it appealing to children.

doctorpangloss 1y ago

Alcohol is no exception, Fourloco was banned!

jjice 1y ago
I believe that was for the high alcohol content mixed with the high caffeine content
- doctorpangloss 1y ago
  the point is that as far as they are permitted to be sold and consumed with regulations for largely cultural reasons, alcohol and tobacco are both subject to cultural (fluid) regulations, and inconsistencies between them are a matter of the speed and power of diffuse cultural forces, not some sort of big conspiracy against libertarians
chucksta 1y ago
Its still for sale, just without caffeine

Freak_NL 1y ago

Do you mean why vapes aren't allowed to be sold in exciting flavours in a lot of countries? Because what happened there was that 'strawberry kiwi', 'banana ice', and 'miami mint', and whatever fruity flavour in a colourful package you can come up with, turned vaping from something adults did to quit smoking tobacco into the biggest hype amongst teenagers since fidget spinners. Only they get addicted to nicotine as a bonus, and switch to 'proper' tobacco in their senior years. Even with a complete ban on those the damage is done, and all across the globe society is now dealing with a huge profitable underground Snapchat-enabled market geared solely at selling the equivalent of a pack-a-day habit in nicotine to kids. (The ban helps to gradually denormalise vaping again, so it is good to have in place.)

cwmoore 1y ago
Central planning saviors to the rescue, keeping everyone safe from themselves or else in jail or public supervision. So no, it is not "good to have in place".
stronglikedan 1y ago
nobody switches to proper tobacco, only from it. nice try tho
skybrian 1y ago
Interesting, what evidence is there that people switch from e-cigarettes to tobacco? I hadn’t heard of that before.
- silverquiet 1y ago
  Every single person I've known who switched from tobacco to e-cigarettes has switched back to tobacco. They all say it's better for one reason or another.
  - meepmorp 1y ago
    Former smokers switching back is one thing, but how often do people start out with vaping and then move to smoking tobacco?

evanjrowley 1y ago

Various U.S. institutions of authority took the position that flavors were not for adults, but instead, a strategy to attract minors. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/why-youth-vape.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/e-cigarettes/why-youth-vape.html https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/ctp-newsroom/misleadingly-labeled-e-liquids-appeal-youth https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/ctp-newsroom/misleading... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6663555/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6663555/ https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/05/ftc-fda-take-action-against-companies-marketing-e-liquids-resemble-childrens-juice-boxes-candies https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/05/... https://www.drugs.com/news/study-finds-powerful-sweetener-vapes-marketed-teens-125222.html https://www.drugs.com/news/study-finds-powerful-sweetener-va...

nashashmi 1y ago
And https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/menthol-tobacco/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/menthol-tobacco/index.html
827a 1y ago
No, they took the stance that this crusade against good flavors should specifically and only apply to Juul. Maybe deservedly given Juul's behavior in marketing to teenagers. Today, you can go to gas stations in most states and buy Cherry Ice Lemonade Cotton Candy Mr Fog vapes, or Geekbars, or whatever brand shipped straight from China is popular this month. To be honest, even if Juul were allowed to bring Mango back, I'm not sure anyone would buy it; compared to the actual desserts you can smoke today, Juul Mango doesn't hold a candle. In other words: Our government utterly decimated an American company just to make room in the market for Chinese competitors to dominate.
- evanjrowley 1y ago
  Would this not be due to the unfortunate reality that litigation and enforcement can be carried out against domestic companies more effectively than foreign ones?
dmix 1y ago

Barrin92 1y ago

>unless the vice is alcohol there is no exception to alcohol for this. Anybody who was a teenager or older in the aughts remembers "alcopops" (might have had a different name depending on where you're from). Lots of countries regulated or raised taxes on mixed drinks because they were seen (probably justifiably so) as targeting teenagers. In Germany it resulted in Smirnoff Ice and some Bacardi mix drink largely going off the shelves.

LeifCarrotson 1y ago

Rules around fruity flavors (trying to target sales that disproportionately go to kids) are one thing. Rules around menthol are another, only slightly less heinous thing. About 85% of African Americans who smoke use menthol cigarettes, compared to a rate of less than 30% menthol use among white Americans. [1] They're disproportionately advertised and were (in the past) literally given away in poor Black communities to get people addicted. Basically, policy makers can target their regulations to a specific group by specifying flavor. Sure, an individual white adult might like fruity flavors or menthols, a black adult might like originals, and some kids might prefer original or menthols, but there's a strong statistical bias. When health departments are trying to address a particular health concern - say, young children smoking - they can do so by targeting fruity flavors. Conversely, when tobacco company marketing departments are trying to advertise their products to Black users without drawing unwanted attention from disproportionately white regulators, they can achieve their goals by promoting menthols. An individual from any population might have any flavor preference, but the dice are shockingly heavily weighted when you're looking at large groups. [1]: https://datatools.samhsa.gov/das/nsduh/2019/nsduh-2019-ds0001/crosstab?column=NEWRACE2&control=CATAGE_RECODE&filter=CIG30MEN!%3D91%2C93%2C94%2C97%2C98%26CATAGE_RECODE%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult&recodes=CATAGE_RECODE%7C1%3DRecoded_New_Category_youth%262%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult%263%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult%264%3DRecoded_New_Category_adult&results_received=true&row=CIG30MEN&run_chisq=false&weight=ANALWT_C https://datatools.samhsa.gov/das/nsduh/2019/nsduh-2019-ds000...

jajuuka 1y ago

Because of the belief that making them desirable to adults is a method to sell them to kids. It also makes them less desirable which keeps cigarette sales up. Tobacco lobby is still going strong with its influence.