4 ms·

Oh, don't get me started on rubber stamps. I taught at a German university for a few years. And they way grades were handled was, you had to print a standardiz

Oh, don't get me started on rubber stamps. I taught at a German university for a few years. And they way grades were handled was, you had to print a standardized piece of paper for every student with their name, date of examination, and grade, and drop them off at the secretary's office. The secretary would stamp every such Schein with a rubber stamp. Then the students would pick up their Scheine at the secretary's office and bring it to the examination department themselves (!) to get the grade registered. Only at the very of my time there, they changed the system and I could hand in the grades directly to the examination department. At any rate, the system was so stupid. It was trivial for students to print a new Schein with a better grade and register that (there must have been a lot of fraud). But the counter argument was 'no, it's very safe because the students do not have a rubber stamp'. Of course, the rubber stamp was just the university logo with something like the faculty name next to it. Trivial to copy (or make a rubber stamp for more enterprising students). Probably the procedure had been followed since 1573, well before home printers, scanners, phone cameras, or get-your-own-rubber-stamp-for-a-few-bucks internet shops.

pwg 1y ago
> Probably the procedure had been followed since 1573, well before home printers, scanners, phone cameras, or get-your-own-rubber-stamp-for-a-few-bucks internet shops. This is almost always how these seemingly silly bureaucracy hoops become established. They were created in a prior time where a third party obtaining "magic item Y" with which to authenticate was significantly difficult to near impossible. Then, over time, the world, and technology improve, to the point where anyone, willing to spend $9.99, can have an exact duplicate of "magic authentication item Y" manufactured via any one of 78 different makers. But the bureaucracy continues using the now outdated process because "this is the way it has always been done". It is largely a real world example of "The Monkeys, Bananas and Ladder Experiment": https://psychologyfor.com/the-monkeys-bananas-and-ladder-experiment-obeying-absurd-rules/ https://psychologyfor.com/the-monkeys-bananas-and-ladder-exp...
- dontTREATonme 1y ago
  I recently joined a very old company, with many lifers, I continuously run into this mentality. “I can’t explain it now, but I’m sure there was a good reason for it, so we’re gonna continue doing it this way”
  - neuronflux 1y ago
    Of course it is typically wise to consider Chesterton's fence.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - isk517 1y ago
    The real issue is that most business just don't document anything to do with their processes. Chance are that there are a hand full of things that there are a good reason for doing and they do need to be done that way. Except the people that identified that original problem and came up with original solution have all left the company so now there is nobody around that has put in the effort (or been given the time to investigate) to figure out why things are done the way they are, and the last time one of the things that had been done forever was suddenly stopped it caused untold amount of chaos so now the directive is to just keep doing everything we've always done.
  - anonym29 1y ago
    Per Chesterton's Fence, isn't this the right course of action for any individual who is unsure of why the practice was started? https://www.lesswrong.com/w/chesterton-s-fence https://www.lesswrong.com/w/chesterton-s-fence
    - Y_Y 1y ago
      I like that fence, but I consider the best course of action to be going and finding out why the thing is done the eay it is, even if it necessitates careful investigation.
- londons_explore 1y ago
  The extension to that is making it illegal to own/buy/use 'magic item Y', on the basis it enables fraud. When they could just cut out the middle man and just make fraud itself illegal and not require the magic item at all.
- razakel 1y ago
  ARM had a huge headache when the CEO of their Chinese subsidiary stole the company seal and refused to give it back. That meant they effectively couldn't do business at all.
Joker_vD 1y ago
Ah, offloading the physical movement of papers between the offices onto the general populace... why don't they just mail each other directly, isn't the part of their job is to communicate with other offices? Lolnope. Sometimes it becomes truly ridiculous: I once had to apply for some thing, and was told I need to grab and provide them some certificate from a different government service to prove that I'm actually eligible. Okay, I do that, and then they spend two weeks verifying the certificate by physically mailing and inquiring info about me from that other service and waiting for them to respond (also by physical mail).
reaperducer 1y ago
Of course, the rubber stamp was just the university logo with something like the faculty name next to it. Trivial to copy (or make a rubber stamp for more enterprising students). My entire career is predicted on the things I did with a stack of university letterhead 40 years ago.

pwg 1y ago

> Probably the procedure had been followed since 1573, well before home printers, scanners, phone cameras, or get-your-own-rubber-stamp-for-a-few-bucks internet shops. This is almost always how these seemingly silly bureaucracy hoops become established. They were created in a prior time where a third party obtaining "magic item Y" with which to authenticate was significantly difficult to near impossible. Then, over time, the world, and technology improve, to the point where anyone, willing to spend $9.99, can have an exact duplicate of "magic authentication item Y" manufactured via any one of 78 different makers. But the bureaucracy continues using the now outdated process because "this is the way it has always been done". It is largely a real world example of "The Monkeys, Bananas and Ladder Experiment": https://psychologyfor.com/the-monkeys-bananas-and-ladder-experiment-obeying-absurd-rules/ https://psychologyfor.com/the-monkeys-bananas-and-ladder-exp...

dontTREATonme 1y ago
I recently joined a very old company, with many lifers, I continuously run into this mentality. “I can’t explain it now, but I’m sure there was a good reason for it, so we’re gonna continue doing it this way”
- neuronflux 1y ago
  Of course it is typically wise to consider Chesterton's fence.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- isk517 1y ago
  The real issue is that most business just don't document anything to do with their processes. Chance are that there are a hand full of things that there are a good reason for doing and they do need to be done that way. Except the people that identified that original problem and came up with original solution have all left the company so now there is nobody around that has put in the effort (or been given the time to investigate) to figure out why things are done the way they are, and the last time one of the things that had been done forever was suddenly stopped it caused untold amount of chaos so now the directive is to just keep doing everything we've always done.
- anonym29 1y ago
  Per Chesterton's Fence, isn't this the right course of action for any individual who is unsure of why the practice was started? https://www.lesswrong.com/w/chesterton-s-fence https://www.lesswrong.com/w/chesterton-s-fence
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    I like that fence, but I consider the best course of action to be going and finding out why the thing is done the eay it is, even if it necessitates careful investigation.
londons_explore 1y ago
The extension to that is making it illegal to own/buy/use 'magic item Y', on the basis it enables fraud. When they could just cut out the middle man and just make fraud itself illegal and not require the magic item at all.
razakel 1y ago
ARM had a huge headache when the CEO of their Chinese subsidiary stole the company seal and refused to give it back. That meant they effectively couldn't do business at all.

Joker_vD 1y ago

Ah, offloading the physical movement of papers between the offices onto the general populace... why don't they just mail each other directly, isn't the part of their job is to communicate with other offices? Lolnope. Sometimes it becomes truly ridiculous: I once had to apply for some thing, and was told I need to grab and provide them some certificate from a different government service to prove that I'm actually eligible. Okay, I do that, and then they spend two weeks verifying the certificate by physically mailing and inquiring info about me from that other service and waiting for them to respond (also by physical mail).

reaperducer 1y ago

Of course, the rubber stamp was just the university logo with something like the faculty name next to it. Trivial to copy (or make a rubber stamp for more enterprising students). My entire career is predicted on the things I did with a stack of university letterhead 40 years ago.