3 ms·

Law is not fair. The law is the reflection of power relations.

by rvnx 1y ago

anon191928 1y ago
Property Laws usually applies to weak in power. Courts teach to masses to show how they lack true power and wealth. It's for show
A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
Natural Law is fair by definition. It is merely a reflection of ancient ethical norms. Positive Law -- the laws set down by kings and legislatures -- is much less fair, but sometimes, however rarely, it tries to embody a codification of the Natural Law. The way the Positive Law is enforced and prosecuted is an utter disaster. In civil courts, justice is bought and sold as a rule; fairness (and even adjudication itself!) is an exception. It's so bad, so transparently twisted, that I think it's fair to say that humans in general have shown that they cannot be trusted with the administration of things such as civil laws. Too corruptible.
- immibis 1y ago
  Natural Law isn't real, and won't hurt you - it's just one particular sect's form of copium.
  - ohman876 1y ago
    You obviously are against that 'one sect', but natural law IS the thing. This is what most people consider to be the norm that governs how we behave. It's not written down, it's what you know is right or wrong. Let me give you some examples: - Raping woman on the street - wrong - Giving starving person some food - good - Stealing from your employer - wrong (unless you are not paid or cheated) - Killing random person - wrong - Caring for your spause and children - good and the list goes on And the general rule, written down by 'that sect' in their book is 'love your neighbor as you love yourself', you should prefer to live among people who really apply this in their life, whenever you share their beliefs or not, because it's so much easier to live among such people than to live among selfish people who will not hesitate to harm you if only their actions go unpunished.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      > love your neighbor as you love yourself This is just communism. If everyone did this, you would have a community-based economy and society. Communism. The sheer idea of competition is antithetical to this world view. Because you would never compete against yourself - but you MUST compete against your neighbors. You would never advocate against yourself, either. Look, it's a nice idea, everyone hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But it's not a Christian thing, Marx figured this out much more concretely. Like, he thought about the actual economic and political consequences of it. And, I don't know, maybe it could work. But I think it's important we're all on the same page about what we're asking for.
      - ohman876 1y ago
        Treat others the way you want to be treated. Even when competing you should not cheat, lie, steal or otherwise commit wrong-doing.
        rvnx 1y ago
        Doesn't sound like YCombinator's recipe for success
        const_cast 1y ago
        Competing against someone means advocating for yourself instead of them. Nobody would ever advocate against themselves - that's self-destructive. So, following the golden rule, competition is immoral. You shouldn't advocate against others, because you wouldn't do it to yourself. More concretely, when you compete you are trying to take money away from other people and give it to yourself. Right? Because a customer could go to them - but you want the customer to go to you. So you get 5 bucks your competitor wouldn't have. What we're noticing here is one of two things: either the golden rule is not at all a rule, and we have to make exceptions, or capitalism at a conceptual level is immoral. One of these two has to be true, no way around it. Personally, I suspect Jesus would never allow capitalism. He would say everyone should share, so everyone can be prosperous. Again... sounds like communism to me.
- ykonstant 1y ago
  >Natural Law is fair by definition. It is merely a reflection of ancient ethical norms. There is no such thing.
  - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    Serious questions, then: Why is slavery wrong? Does human life have no innate (non-relative, not bestowed) dignity, in your view? When judges refer (as they frequently do) to uncodified notions of "fair play" or "good faith and fair dealing," what are they basing those notions on? Is it not a continuation of the ancient Natural Law inclination towards promise-keeping, reflected in many human societies as the oath-breaking taboo?
atq2119 1y ago
Let's not give up just like that. The rule of law is one of the greatest achievements of western society and a major reason for the west's global dominance. True, it was always imperfect due to the realpolitik of power. But that doesn't change the fact that the very idea of rule of law is in opposition to rule of power.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Outside of mass violence against the political class or praying they suddenly start listening to us, what exactly is there to do?

Law is not fair. The law is the reflection of power relations.

by rvnx 1y ago

Law is not fair. The law is the reflection of power relations.

anon191928 1y ago

Property Laws usually applies to weak in power. Courts teach to masses to show how they lack true power and wealth. It's for show

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago

Natural Law is fair by definition. It is merely a reflection of ancient ethical norms. Positive Law -- the laws set down by kings and legislatures -- is much less fair, but sometimes, however rarely, it tries to embody a codification of the Natural Law. The way the Positive Law is enforced and prosecuted is an utter disaster. In civil courts, justice is bought and sold as a rule; fairness (and even adjudication itself!) is an exception. It's so bad, so transparently twisted, that I think it's fair to say that humans in general have shown that they cannot be trusted with the administration of things such as civil laws. Too corruptible.

immibis 1y ago
Natural Law isn't real, and won't hurt you - it's just one particular sect's form of copium.
- ohman876 1y ago
  You obviously are against that 'one sect', but natural law IS the thing. This is what most people consider to be the norm that governs how we behave. It's not written down, it's what you know is right or wrong. Let me give you some examples: - Raping woman on the street - wrong - Giving starving person some food - good - Stealing from your employer - wrong (unless you are not paid or cheated) - Killing random person - wrong - Caring for your spause and children - good and the list goes on And the general rule, written down by 'that sect' in their book is 'love your neighbor as you love yourself', you should prefer to live among people who really apply this in their life, whenever you share their beliefs or not, because it's so much easier to live among such people than to live among selfish people who will not hesitate to harm you if only their actions go unpunished.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    > love your neighbor as you love yourself This is just communism. If everyone did this, you would have a community-based economy and society. Communism. The sheer idea of competition is antithetical to this world view. Because you would never compete against yourself - but you MUST compete against your neighbors. You would never advocate against yourself, either. Look, it's a nice idea, everyone hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But it's not a Christian thing, Marx figured this out much more concretely. Like, he thought about the actual economic and political consequences of it. And, I don't know, maybe it could work. But I think it's important we're all on the same page about what we're asking for.
    - ohman876 1y ago
      Treat others the way you want to be treated. Even when competing you should not cheat, lie, steal or otherwise commit wrong-doing.
      - rvnx 1y ago
        Doesn't sound like YCombinator's recipe for success
      - const_cast 1y ago
        Competing against someone means advocating for yourself instead of them. Nobody would ever advocate against themselves - that's self-destructive. So, following the golden rule, competition is immoral. You shouldn't advocate against others, because you wouldn't do it to yourself. More concretely, when you compete you are trying to take money away from other people and give it to yourself. Right? Because a customer could go to them - but you want the customer to go to you. So you get 5 bucks your competitor wouldn't have. What we're noticing here is one of two things: either the golden rule is not at all a rule, and we have to make exceptions, or capitalism at a conceptual level is immoral. One of these two has to be true, no way around it. Personally, I suspect Jesus would never allow capitalism. He would say everyone should share, so everyone can be prosperous. Again... sounds like communism to me.
ykonstant 1y ago
>Natural Law is fair by definition. It is merely a reflection of ancient ethical norms. There is no such thing.
- A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
  Serious questions, then: Why is slavery wrong? Does human life have no innate (non-relative, not bestowed) dignity, in your view? When judges refer (as they frequently do) to uncodified notions of "fair play" or "good faith and fair dealing," what are they basing those notions on? Is it not a continuation of the ancient Natural Law inclination towards promise-keeping, reflected in many human societies as the oath-breaking taboo?

atq2119 1y ago

Let's not give up just like that. The rule of law is one of the greatest achievements of western society and a major reason for the west's global dominance. True, it was always imperfect due to the realpolitik of power. But that doesn't change the fact that the very idea of rule of law is in opposition to rule of power.

Tadpole9181 1y ago
Outside of mass violence against the political class or praying they suddenly start listening to us, what exactly is there to do?