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>... one of the least ethical companies around today. Are you serious? You believe a computer company is one of the least ethical companies?

by Volpe 14y ago

josteink 14y ago
Fair enough. Let me make an edit and prepend "in the tech-industry" to that statement and I'll stand for it. Apple has joined the rank of patent-trolls and turned what used to be a tech-industry into a litiagative minefield where you need more lawyers than engineers to do a business. They are the front-runners of software-patents and they deserve all the flack they get for it. I don't think there's any debating that patent-trolls are evil and that supporting them are wrong.
- Volpe 14y ago
  Did they turn it into this minefield? Or do they just play the 'evil' game better than others. I'm don't like to split things into 'Good' and 'Evil' (as they are inherently subjective). But the patent system seems to be the problem here, and until it is removed one has to work within it.
  - talmand 14y ago
    They are not the only ones turning it into a minefield, but they most definitely participate in making it a deadly game to play. If they were using their patents in a defensive way I would have a different attitude but it seems to me they are rather aggressive in using their patents to go after people they feel are a threat.
    - halostatue 14y ago
      Yet they're also stepping up to the plate to defend their platform developers in the Lodsys dispute. http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-to-intervene-in-lodsys-lawsuit-against-ios-developers/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-to-i... As with most of life, this is not the black-and-white situation that people make it out to be. Samsung clearly did everything they could to make a bunch of their products seem like Apple products and increase customer confusion. Apple clearly got patents for things which seem to be fairly obvious or which under better analysis would not have been granted. It's also easy for me to say that something is obvious…five years after it became widely available to the public, and seven years after most of us first saw similar stuff shown in a TED video. Gooterola (Moogle?) clearly is abusing FRAND obligations on some of their standards-essential patents. As far as I can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse some of their FRAND standards-essential patents, too. Mercutio: I am hurt. A plague a' both your houses! I am sped. Is he gone and hath nothing?
      - icarus127 14y ago
        Gooterola (Moogle?) clearly is abusing FRAND obligations on some of their standards-essential patents. As far as I can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse some of their FRAND standards-essential patents, too. This is probably true but looks a lot like of case of "when someone attacks you reach for whatever is at hand". Samsung and Motorola clearly believe that those patents are the best thing they've got to counter Apple's attacks. Unfortunately it seems that because those patents are standards-essential Apple's absurd patents have more legal power than patents that are actually interesting.
        halostatue 14y ago
        …except that when you introduce a patent that's standards-essential to a standards body for use in that standard, you are making a legally binding pledge not to weaponize that patent and to make it available to everyone under the same Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory rules. Apple hasn't done that, except with some of the patents it has that are part of H.264.
      - Osiris 14y ago
        I cannot believe that anyone that bought a Samsung phone thought they were getting an iPhone. As much as they may have tried to make it look or act similar, it's still not an iPhone. Now if they made a phone like those Chinese knock-off iPhones that literally looks exactly like the iPhone, then sure, they violated trademark or something. But the whole idea that Apple lost sales to Samsung because people were confused an thought they were buying an iPhone is crazy.
        halostatue 14y ago
        It's not crazy. Just because you can't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People will think that Samsung is just selling a version of Apple's iPhone. After all, that's what a lot of phone manufacturers do. HTC sells a version of an Android phone. Samsung sells…you get the idea. People not steeped in geekery tend not to understand manufacturer licensing.
      - 14y ago
- Terretta 14y ago
  Apple didn't start this. Incumbents did, Apple is better at it and better funded than incumbents, yet even so settled with Nokia. Don't hate them for hitting back hard.
- greedo 14y ago
  I take it you haven't had to deal with Oracle much? That's an easy target, and I could list many more that exhibited far worse behavior than Apple has in the last ten years. But hey, Apple is the new evil for everyone who feels compelled to periodically pick up a pitchfork and torch. I wonder what company it will be in 2020?
koide 14y ago
Supposing he meant "least ethical computer companies" it's still very doubtful, assuming all of Apple's marketing about worker conditions improvement and recycling is true or near true. Disclaimer: I do believe walled gardens are evil and software patents should die.
- gridaphobe 14y ago
  I generally assume that all marketing, regardless of who produced it, is a lie.
  - koide 14y ago
    That's a good maxim to live by, but lies come in different flavors. Are they not improving conditions at all or just not in the amount they claim they are? Are they just throwing all the recycling material they get in the dumpster or they recycle less than claimed? I expect the latter in both cases, which put them in a better ethical standpoint than many competitors, who are just as readily patent trigger happy and actually use minor labor and recycle nothing at all.

>... one of the least ethical companies around today. Are you serious? You believe a computer company is one of the least ethical companies?

by Volpe 14y ago

>... one of the least ethical companies around today. Are you serious? You believe a computer company is one of the least ethical companies?

josteink 14y ago

Fair enough. Let me make an edit and prepend "in the tech-industry" to that statement and I'll stand for it. Apple has joined the rank of patent-trolls and turned what used to be a tech-industry into a litiagative minefield where you need more lawyers than engineers to do a business. They are the front-runners of software-patents and they deserve all the flack they get for it. I don't think there's any debating that patent-trolls are evil and that supporting them are wrong.

Volpe 14y ago
Did they turn it into this minefield? Or do they just play the 'evil' game better than others. I'm don't like to split things into 'Good' and 'Evil' (as they are inherently subjective). But the patent system seems to be the problem here, and until it is removed one has to work within it.
- talmand 14y ago
  They are not the only ones turning it into a minefield, but they most definitely participate in making it a deadly game to play. If they were using their patents in a defensive way I would have a different attitude but it seems to me they are rather aggressive in using their patents to go after people they feel are a threat.
  - halostatue 14y ago
    Yet they're also stepping up to the plate to defend their platform developers in the Lodsys dispute. http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-to-intervene-in-lodsys-lawsuit-against-ios-developers/ http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/court-allows-apple-to-i... As with most of life, this is not the black-and-white situation that people make it out to be. Samsung clearly did everything they could to make a bunch of their products seem like Apple products and increase customer confusion. Apple clearly got patents for things which seem to be fairly obvious or which under better analysis would not have been granted. It's also easy for me to say that something is obvious…five years after it became widely available to the public, and seven years after most of us first saw similar stuff shown in a TED video. Gooterola (Moogle?) clearly is abusing FRAND obligations on some of their standards-essential patents. As far as I can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse some of their FRAND standards-essential patents, too. Mercutio: I am hurt. A plague a' both your houses! I am sped. Is he gone and hath nothing?
    - icarus127 14y ago
      Gooterola (Moogle?) clearly is abusing FRAND obligations on some of their standards-essential patents. As far as I can tell, Samsung is trying to abuse some of their FRAND standards-essential patents, too. This is probably true but looks a lot like of case of "when someone attacks you reach for whatever is at hand". Samsung and Motorola clearly believe that those patents are the best thing they've got to counter Apple's attacks. Unfortunately it seems that because those patents are standards-essential Apple's absurd patents have more legal power than patents that are actually interesting.
      - halostatue 14y ago
        …except that when you introduce a patent that's standards-essential to a standards body for use in that standard, you are making a legally binding pledge not to weaponize that patent and to make it available to everyone under the same Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory rules. Apple hasn't done that, except with some of the patents it has that are part of H.264.
    - Osiris 14y ago
      I cannot believe that anyone that bought a Samsung phone thought they were getting an iPhone. As much as they may have tried to make it look or act similar, it's still not an iPhone. Now if they made a phone like those Chinese knock-off iPhones that literally looks exactly like the iPhone, then sure, they violated trademark or something. But the whole idea that Apple lost sales to Samsung because people were confused an thought they were buying an iPhone is crazy.
      - halostatue 14y ago
        It's not crazy. Just because you can't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People will think that Samsung is just selling a version of Apple's iPhone. After all, that's what a lot of phone manufacturers do. HTC sells a version of an Android phone. Samsung sells…you get the idea. People not steeped in geekery tend not to understand manufacturer licensing.
    - 14y ago
Terretta 14y ago
Apple didn't start this. Incumbents did, Apple is better at it and better funded than incumbents, yet even so settled with Nokia. Don't hate them for hitting back hard.
greedo 14y ago
I take it you haven't had to deal with Oracle much? That's an easy target, and I could list many more that exhibited far worse behavior than Apple has in the last ten years. But hey, Apple is the new evil for everyone who feels compelled to periodically pick up a pitchfork and torch. I wonder what company it will be in 2020?

koide 14y ago

Supposing he meant "least ethical computer companies" it's still very doubtful, assuming all of Apple's marketing about worker conditions improvement and recycling is true or near true. Disclaimer: I do believe walled gardens are evil and software patents should die.

gridaphobe 14y ago
I generally assume that all marketing, regardless of who produced it, is a lie.
- koide 14y ago
  That's a good maxim to live by, but lies come in different flavors. Are they not improving conditions at all or just not in the amount they claim they are? Are they just throwing all the recycling material they get in the dumpster or they recycle less than claimed? I expect the latter in both cases, which put them in a better ethical standpoint than many competitors, who are just as readily patent trigger happy and actually use minor labor and recycle nothing at all.