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I work in commercial real estate. There are massive amounts of monopoly/duopoly interests in construction. Want to build affordable housing? Well if you are ta

I work in commercial real estate. There are massive amounts of monopoly/duopoly interests in construction. Want to build affordable housing? Well if you are taking public dollars, you have to work with certain vendors which are approved and meet certain qualifications. Guess what, only 2 electrical vendors are approved! And so they work together and act as a racket to hold your project hostage unless you meet them on their terms. Actually had a call today with an exec with one of the largest construction general contractors and this topic of "we can't do XYZ project [e.g. compete in that type of project type... driving costs down through competition] because we hire ABC union labor and it would screw us and our relations with the unions we work with." Every developer has a war story of getting burned exactly in some way by being beholden to political or labor issues. This results in higher costs... which ultimately is one of the main issues among others.

andrekandre 1y ago
> we hire ABC union labor and it would screw us and our relations with the unions we work with would maybe an industry-wide union fix that issue?
- Eji1700 1y ago
  Doubtful. People get starry eyed at the idea of unions and I get why. Employees need more protection. But power patterns are the same everywhere and rather than having corrupt corporate bullshit you get corrupt union bullshit. It just might benefit you if you work in the industry and might very much be at the cost of everyone else. Police unions are the infamous example alongside the teamsters , but almost everyone who’s worked with or for one has stories. I know someone who works for one and what do you know the people at the top get preferential treatment and there’s all sorts of bullshit going on. It’s still almost certainly better for him but it’s probably not ideal for the projects. Ignoring cost overruns and hand waving things that fall under “look let’s just let people be people not perfect” you still get a lot of problematic behavior. For example my friend is very good at his job because he was taught by someone very good and as a result has high standards for his work. This has gotten him targeted because he sets expectations too high which sure feels like a crock of shit. And that’s just the work related bullshit. There’s still the classics like someone higher up the chain being friends with the right people and throwing others under the bus when they shit the bed.
  - idiotsecant 1y ago
    Yes, police unions are corrupt because police are corrupt. This is not generally the case.
    - Eji1700 1y ago
      Meh chicken/egg. Giving people organized power is proven over and over again to lead to problems. It’s why we have political science and centuries of “how do we stop everyone from saying fuck it and killing each other” The police having a state mandated monopoly on violence only adds to the problem but the core issue is still there, and it’s hard to do checks and balances that just don’t erode to either regulatory capture, rampant bureaucracy, over efficient streamlining, or more often than not some mix of all three
  - fc417fc802 1y ago
    It's worth pointing out that these issues vary by the union. As with any type of organization some will be better than others. I don't think being anti-union is the right answer but rather pushing for systemic changes that would curb various problematic behaviors. When it comes to construction you don't even need to involve unions to find corruption. There's all sorts of corruption (or borderline corruption) surrounding zoning laws in most of the heavily populated places in the US and that's in addition to the blatant political dysfunction.
    - Eji1700 1y ago
      Sure but I think one of the huge issues is size and the simple fact that the union is by definition NOT pro country/greater good/citizen but pro Union member. So yea when some CEO golden parachutes out with all the money we’re all rightfully pissed, but people weren’t thrilled with jimmy hoffa or state mandated monopolies that just don’t give a fuck either. In my city the power company will just tell you to fuck right off no matter what your schedule was for opening your business, no matter how important you are. Hope you can handle your building being built 1+ months behind because “nah fuck you” while the government head makes a million + a year. Scaling these things so they don’t fall to corruption and graft is very very hard.
torginus 1y ago
That sounds fishy, yes, electricians do need licensing, but as long as they (as in individuals or small companies) have the correct certs, I don't see why you couldn't substitute one with the other.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

andrekandre 1y ago

> we hire ABC union labor and it would screw us and our relations with the unions we work with would maybe an industry-wide union fix that issue?

Eji1700 1y ago
Doubtful. People get starry eyed at the idea of unions and I get why. Employees need more protection. But power patterns are the same everywhere and rather than having corrupt corporate bullshit you get corrupt union bullshit. It just might benefit you if you work in the industry and might very much be at the cost of everyone else. Police unions are the infamous example alongside the teamsters , but almost everyone who’s worked with or for one has stories. I know someone who works for one and what do you know the people at the top get preferential treatment and there’s all sorts of bullshit going on. It’s still almost certainly better for him but it’s probably not ideal for the projects. Ignoring cost overruns and hand waving things that fall under “look let’s just let people be people not perfect” you still get a lot of problematic behavior. For example my friend is very good at his job because he was taught by someone very good and as a result has high standards for his work. This has gotten him targeted because he sets expectations too high which sure feels like a crock of shit. And that’s just the work related bullshit. There’s still the classics like someone higher up the chain being friends with the right people and throwing others under the bus when they shit the bed.
- idiotsecant 1y ago
  Yes, police unions are corrupt because police are corrupt. This is not generally the case.
  - Eji1700 1y ago
    Meh chicken/egg. Giving people organized power is proven over and over again to lead to problems. It’s why we have political science and centuries of “how do we stop everyone from saying fuck it and killing each other” The police having a state mandated monopoly on violence only adds to the problem but the core issue is still there, and it’s hard to do checks and balances that just don’t erode to either regulatory capture, rampant bureaucracy, over efficient streamlining, or more often than not some mix of all three
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  It's worth pointing out that these issues vary by the union. As with any type of organization some will be better than others. I don't think being anti-union is the right answer but rather pushing for systemic changes that would curb various problematic behaviors. When it comes to construction you don't even need to involve unions to find corruption. There's all sorts of corruption (or borderline corruption) surrounding zoning laws in most of the heavily populated places in the US and that's in addition to the blatant political dysfunction.
  - Eji1700 1y ago
    Sure but I think one of the huge issues is size and the simple fact that the union is by definition NOT pro country/greater good/citizen but pro Union member. So yea when some CEO golden parachutes out with all the money we’re all rightfully pissed, but people weren’t thrilled with jimmy hoffa or state mandated monopolies that just don’t give a fuck either. In my city the power company will just tell you to fuck right off no matter what your schedule was for opening your business, no matter how important you are. Hope you can handle your building being built 1+ months behind because “nah fuck you” while the government head makes a million + a year. Scaling these things so they don’t fall to corruption and graft is very very hard.

torginus 1y ago

That sounds fishy, yes, electricians do need licensing, but as long as they (as in individuals or small companies) have the correct certs, I don't see why you couldn't substitute one with the other.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]