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I find it funny that management started referring to themselves as leadership in the recent decades. Maybe some are, but most are your run of the mil administra

I find it funny that management started referring to themselves as leadership in the recent decades. Maybe some are, but most are your run of the mil administrators that carry out whatever upper management says. Hardly leadership.

analog31 1y ago
It reminds me of dictatorships referring to their officials as "revolutionaries."
- vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
  Us Germans had a famous leader a while ago. It’s much less popular to call yourself a leader there c
denkmoon 1y ago
Leading us right over the parapet into the machine gun fire.
- gonzo41 1y ago
  More like directing us over the parapet.
  - denkmoon 1y ago
    Leading like Haig. From the rear :')
lll-o-lll 1y ago
First a caveat - I’m not a manager. I am at the top of the tech tree in a large org, which carries with it “leadership responsibilities”. I’ve also worn many hats over the years in various employment, so I know a thing or two about management. I think you are generally wrong. Yes, ‘manager’ carries with it a certain amount of administrative and organisational responsibilities, not to mention the important ‘soft skills’ with conflict resolution and the like. But to deny or minimise the value of providing leadership is to miss the forest for the trees. The good managers I work with (and in my role I work with many) are definitely leaders in the traditional sense. They are the cool, rational, respected hands that provide guidance, break ties in debates and help drive the team/s forward. They are required to think strategically at times, and are certainly invaluable tactically. We are all accountable to someone, all the way up to the CEO (who is accountable to the board). To diminish the role and contribution of managers at the bottom of the management stack is to be wilfully ignorant of the value they are providing.
- bigfatkitten 1y ago
  > The good managers I work with (and in my role I work with many) are definitely leaders in the traditional sense. Good managers are leaders, but this is far from universal. Most orgs have no shortage of managers who used be good individual contributors, and who were pushed into the management track due to seniority when the previous manager left, or who wanted the pay bump, but have no real leadership ability and have no business being there.
  - lll-o-lll 1y ago
    There are a lot of “it depends” here. I’ve worked at orgs where best engineer gets promoted to manager because… best engineer! And the result can be a train wreck. I’ve seen the reverse where managers from a business background are managing engineers (also can be a train wreck). There are also plenty of great managers who don’t “lead”; they go about their work building a great working environment and helping others succeed (often a senior engineer will be providing the leadership portion). A good organisation will be good at offering opportunity to the right people and giving them the tools they need. I agree that a good org is rarer than it should be, which is probably the source of much cynicism.
- rester324 1y ago
  You are generally wrong, but minimally true. If what you wrote was true, these people would be titled leaders or officers. But they aren't. Because they aren't. It's not that complicated. And yes, rarely some people show leadership, but that's rarely a requirement to be a manager
- zug_zug 1y ago
  Nah you're entirely off base. Leading is having an affect on those around you such that they voluntarily look to your for input. Any role at a company can do that, so to try to pretend that falls directly on management lines is a white lie managers tell themselves.
  - unethical_ban 1y ago
    Not every role can do that, by a mile. Some technical people are terrible at helping juniors in their careers, and relatively poor communicators. Their job is "get the thing built" or "maintain the servers". Managers support each report in succeeding not just at their job but their career, and are an escalation point for cross-team conflict, among other things.
closeparen 1y ago
When I was in high school, there was some quasi-curricular programming around "leadership" which I thought might teach me something about being in charge of a group of people or responsible for a collective outcome. Unfortunately it turned out to be a weird mishmash of personal virtue and volunteerism/activism. What I learned about delivering an outcome with a team, I learned stage-managing musicals.
gerdesj 1y ago
I personally find that calling out something works best by being respectful. I specifically avoid starting off with: "I find it funny that ...". You seem to have an axe to grind and that is fine. Someone might have wronged you in some way but you don't really say how or why. If you need to vent, then feel free - we are all friends here, within reason (but don't say names - it's best that way).

analog31 1y ago

It reminds me of dictatorships referring to their officials as "revolutionaries."

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
Us Germans had a famous leader a while ago. It’s much less popular to call yourself a leader there c

denkmoon 1y ago

Leading us right over the parapet into the machine gun fire.

gonzo41 1y ago
More like directing us over the parapet.
- denkmoon 1y ago
  Leading like Haig. From the rear :')

lll-o-lll 1y ago

First a caveat - I’m not a manager. I am at the top of the tech tree in a large org, which carries with it “leadership responsibilities”. I’ve also worn many hats over the years in various employment, so I know a thing or two about management. I think you are generally wrong. Yes, ‘manager’ carries with it a certain amount of administrative and organisational responsibilities, not to mention the important ‘soft skills’ with conflict resolution and the like. But to deny or minimise the value of providing leadership is to miss the forest for the trees. The good managers I work with (and in my role I work with many) are definitely leaders in the traditional sense. They are the cool, rational, respected hands that provide guidance, break ties in debates and help drive the team/s forward. They are required to think strategically at times, and are certainly invaluable tactically. We are all accountable to someone, all the way up to the CEO (who is accountable to the board). To diminish the role and contribution of managers at the bottom of the management stack is to be wilfully ignorant of the value they are providing.

bigfatkitten 1y ago
> The good managers I work with (and in my role I work with many) are definitely leaders in the traditional sense. Good managers are leaders, but this is far from universal. Most orgs have no shortage of managers who used be good individual contributors, and who were pushed into the management track due to seniority when the previous manager left, or who wanted the pay bump, but have no real leadership ability and have no business being there.
- lll-o-lll 1y ago
  There are a lot of “it depends” here. I’ve worked at orgs where best engineer gets promoted to manager because… best engineer! And the result can be a train wreck. I’ve seen the reverse where managers from a business background are managing engineers (also can be a train wreck). There are also plenty of great managers who don’t “lead”; they go about their work building a great working environment and helping others succeed (often a senior engineer will be providing the leadership portion). A good organisation will be good at offering opportunity to the right people and giving them the tools they need. I agree that a good org is rarer than it should be, which is probably the source of much cynicism.
rester324 1y ago
You are generally wrong, but minimally true. If what you wrote was true, these people would be titled leaders or officers. But they aren't. Because they aren't. It's not that complicated. And yes, rarely some people show leadership, but that's rarely a requirement to be a manager
zug_zug 1y ago
Nah you're entirely off base. Leading is having an affect on those around you such that they voluntarily look to your for input. Any role at a company can do that, so to try to pretend that falls directly on management lines is a white lie managers tell themselves.
- unethical_ban 1y ago
  Not every role can do that, by a mile. Some technical people are terrible at helping juniors in their careers, and relatively poor communicators. Their job is "get the thing built" or "maintain the servers". Managers support each report in succeeding not just at their job but their career, and are an escalation point for cross-team conflict, among other things.

closeparen 1y ago

When I was in high school, there was some quasi-curricular programming around "leadership" which I thought might teach me something about being in charge of a group of people or responsible for a collective outcome. Unfortunately it turned out to be a weird mishmash of personal virtue and volunteerism/activism. What I learned about delivering an outcome with a team, I learned stage-managing musicals.

gerdesj 1y ago

I personally find that calling out something works best by being respectful. I specifically avoid starting off with: "I find it funny that ...". You seem to have an axe to grind and that is fine. Someone might have wronged you in some way but you don't really say how or why. If you need to vent, then feel free - we are all friends here, within reason (but don't say names - it's best that way).