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In fact people with ADHD have also their peculiar walks: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/H1YsnuaYY-g https://www.youtube.com/shorts/H1YsnuaYY-g > based on outwa

In fact people with ADHD have also their peculiar walks: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/H1YsnuaYY-g https://www.youtube.com/shorts/H1YsnuaYY-g > based on outward behavior Yes, neurodivergence can only be diagnosed based on how you work on the inside. It is not possible to diagnose based on outside behavior as people can show symptoms very differently and can mask their symptoms. And no, you obviously can not diagnose people based on how they walk. If anything it can only give you hints or be a fun thing to talk about. > over-diagnose Both autism are ADHD are vastly under-diagnosed especially in women and adults. The fear of over-diagnosis makes no sense. There are very hard criteria for an diagnosis and it requires that every other explanation for the behavior is excluded before a diagnosis can be made. The reality it that it is a huge struggle for anyone with autism or ADHD to get any form of help or even diagnosis. Medication for ADHD works extremely well. Not for everyone but for like 70% and that is insanely good. Still there is so much fearmongering against it. But anti-depressants that can have much more serious side-effects and don't even work that well? Yes, they giving them like they are candy. Insanity. Struggle mentally in any shape or form? Oh, you must be depressed? What causes the depression? We will not dig deeper. Have your pills and be happy! But stimulants, no those are of the devil! Not to say that some people don't have just depression but the double standard is infuriating and often undiagnosed neurodivergence causes depression.

gcau 1y ago
>Both autism are ADHD are vastly under-diagnosed especially in women and adults. How is this known or proven?
- cardanome 1y ago
  We can do science and extrapolate data: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ > As of 2018, 2.94% of 10- to 14-year-olds had a diagnosis (1 in 34), vs. 0.02% aged 70+ (1 in 6000). https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ > The ratio of males to females with ASD is generally quoted as 4:1,[..]The true male-to-female ratio appears to be 3:4. Eighty percent of females remain undiagnosed at age 18, which has serious consequences for the mental health of young women.
dns_snek 1y ago
> There are very hard criteria for an diagnosis and it requires that every other explanation for the behavior is excluded before a diagnosis can be made. Is this standard truly being upheld? Most stories I've heard from people in US & UK go something like "I filled out some forms, hopped on a call/saw a psychiatrist for 30-60 minutes and walked out with a diagnosis and a prescription". Sometimes people even joke about how their psychiatrist talked to them for 10 minutes and concluded that they definitely have ADHD, and while that might be the case, it doesn't seem like many professionals are being particularly thorough about the differential diagnosis and ruling out other causes. Personally I had to undergo relatively rigorous testing where they went through my entire medical history and administered about a dozen different neuropsychological tests which took about 5 hours total, over 2 months, multiple appointments, and then another month for them to analyze everything and come back to me with the diagnosis. Of course that doesn't mean that ADHD is overdiagnosed or that those diagnoses are wrong, but it doesn't seem like many places are being as rigorous as they're supposed to be? Am I missing anything?
- cardanome 1y ago
  I don't really know the situation in the US. Here in Germany it is for sure rigorous. I had three appointments and lots of questionnaires to fill out at home that were designed to exclude all kind of conditions. And with a diagnosis I was still far away from getting a prescription, that is whole other hurdle. As for the US, well the CDC says in the section for conditions that must be met: > The symptoms are not better explained by another mental disorder (such as a mood disorder, anxiety disorder, dissociative disorder, or a personality disorder). The symptoms do not happen only during the course of schizophrenia or another psychotic disorder. https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/index.html So it is pretty clear on that.
- dkga 1y ago
  “Prescription”?
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    I don't understand the scare quotes, prescription for ADHD medication, typically psychostimulants.
unethical_ban 1y ago
Seeing shared experience is one thing, but I don't trust Shorts/Reels to be an authority on anything important like medical diagnoses. It should be like wikipedia: She should have a link to a scientific paper or doctor corroborating her entertainment skit. As I read through your entire comment, I see you might agree. And yes, I've seen that woman on Reels before, some of her observations I can confirm, such as "body double" or whatever it's called where you are more productive when interacting with someone else, even if they aren't helping you with something. Aside: I don't think my PCP is the #1 person to talk to regarding variations in ADHD treatment. I have adderall, which can help sometimes focus me on a task and bypass the anxiety of talking/typing through issues at work. But I loathe using it daily. I wonder if any other medication works differently. Ritalin is different but similar.
yieldcrv 1y ago
kind of like coughing sure, people with the common cold do it but so do people with at least 100 other ailments
forgotoldacc 1y ago
> The fear of over-diagnosis makes no sense. It feels rational to me, especially coming from a society where everything that's considered a syndrome needs to be treated and washed away with medication. Back in the 90s, every boy who laughed or had any sort of fun in my school was recommended to be put in ritalin and other ADHD meds. I was a quiet kid, but like any child, had a moment of goofiness here and there. And those moments were far less common than my peers. Despite that, my parents got calls from a teacher saying my 10 year old self needs to be put on meds because I clearly have an issue. I'm glad my parents told them to buzz off. But more than half the other boys in my class were drugged up. Even as a kid, I thought that was strange. Looking back, it's horrifying. I think the suggestion amongst some groups that everyone must visit psychologists and psychiatrists and must be evaluated and must be diagnosed is kind of bizarre. Some people struggle and it should be easier to get help. But some people are a bit weird, they grow into it as part of their identity, and being labeled as having some sort of neurodivergence and being told they can fix it is surely more damaging than just letting them be a bit strange. If you've got autism and the biggest thing that stands out is the way you walk... I don't think dragging a kid to a doctor to be told they're not normal is really all that beneficial.
- cardanome 1y ago
  > If you've got autism and the biggest thing that stands out is the way you walk... I don't think dragging a kid to a doctor to be told they're not normal is really all that beneficial. There are very strict criteria on how people are to be diagnosed. More importantly you are NOT getting diagnosed if you are just happy and don't need any help. You can NOT be diagnosed with autism without any support needs. Same as you can not be diagnosed ADHD if it causes you not trouble at all. > being labeled as having some sort of neurodivergence and being told they can fix it is surely more damaging than just letting them be a bit strange. You want to know what going through life without an diagnosis for your neurodivergence looks like? People hate you. You don't know why but they just do. You are wrong. Everyone else seems to know when to say the right thing at the right time but you don't. You are some weird alien that does not belong. You try to memorize things to say, copy how other people act, it works but the mask often slips. You must be hyper-vigilant in every social situation to not let the real you slip out. It becomes so automatic that you don't even remember who you are anymore. It is exhausting, so exhausting and alienating. You crash and burn from time to time. Things that are easy for other people. You can't even fold your laundry. You are lazy. If you would just apply yourself, you could do so much. Achieve so much. But you don't. You lack discipline. Everything you try you just give up after a while. You read a bunch of self-help books, you learn you to organize your time, all the tricks but they never work for you. You are a failure. Not being diagnosed is absolute hell. Just being able to know why you struggle, to learn coping strategies that work with your brain, to talk with people with the same struggles, to finally find people that understand you, is absolutely life changing. And no, it is not about fixing people. You can not fix ADHD, people are born with it and that is how they are. It is about them getting the help they need and embracing that people are different. > I was a quiet kid Quiet kids can have ADHD > my parents got calls from a teacher Teachers don't diagnose children. They don't decide whether you need to get medicated or not. Furthermore, yes people where probably very ignorant about ADHD in your childhood, we understand it much better now. > drugged up That not how ADHD meds work. They can give you the super power to fold your laundry in a single business day, they don't get you high. Some people hate how they feel but for many they work great. Medication is just one option, you can also learn better coping skills through therapy or coaching. > It feels rational to me As someone who was diagnosed late, it seems more like ignorance to me.
strken 1y ago
> Yes, neurodivergence can only be diagnosed based on how you work on the inside. I don't think this is exactly true. We don't involuntarily commit people to psych wards after a long and complicated investigation to understand their mental state. Diagnoses can be made extremely quickly and with little understanding of the interior state of a patient. > Both autism are ADHD are vastly under-diagnosed especially in women and adults. I've heard it said that both autism and ADHD are like height, in that it's not clear where the boundary sits. We all agree that some people are tall and some people are short. When someone claims that there are a vast number of undiagnosed tall people, though, to what extent is it because we're not reaching enough people vs because our diagnostic threshold for tallness has lowered?
- cardanome 1y ago
  > because our diagnostic threshold for tallness has lowered? The threshold for being diagnosed as autistic has increased in recent years. As Asperger is not a separate diagnosis anymore but is part of ASD, some people that might have gotten an Asperger diagnosis would not get an ASD diagnosis today. Again, a diagnosis requires that you have care needs. If you don't, you will not be diagnosed. There is no slippery slope of lowering standards. There have always been neurodivergent people. Not long ago, here in Germany autistic children were systematically murdered during the Nazi regime. The difference is that neurodivergent people don't have to hide anymore as much. We finally have at least a bit of a voice.
  - strken 1y ago
    > Again, a diagnosis requires that you have care needs. If you don't, you will not be diagnosed. There is no slippery slope of lowering standards. I don't understand how a slippery slope of lowering standards and not diagnosing anyone unless they have care needs are mutually exclusive. Our standard of care for basically everything has increased. I think you and I both agree that autistic people in the 1960s were less well cared for than in the 1990s, and that treatment has further improved today. > There have always been neurodivergent people. Not long ago, here in Germany autistic children were systematically murdered during the Nazi regime...The difference is that neurodivergent people don't have to hide anymore as much. We finally have at least a bit of a voice. This is interesting, because I agree with every individual statement, but it's still not supporting evidence for a change in diagnostic threshold.
chneu 1y ago
Autism is being over diagnosed in the US for sure. It might be different in Germany but I know plenty of folks who have been diagnosed autistic after just a conversation or two with their therapist. I know multiple therapists who have had parents try to get their kids an autism diagnosis because they think it'll help on admissions to colleges. So be aware that what YOU experience is not what is happening elsewhere. Autism is super cool on social media right now. So while the people who likely should be getting diagnosed likely aren't, many people who don't have autism are happily getting the diagnosis so they can fit in a group or have that label. Be aware that in the US, many people shop around to get the diagnosis they want and many doctors have happy to appease them. That's why antibiotics are massively over rxed in the US. Mental health is no different.
- cardanome 1y ago
  That sounds like the same moral panic trans people face. Oh, the children are turned trans by social media and all that shite. No mentally healthy person is going to pretend to be autistic. There is still a huge stigma against it despite some parts of social media being progressive. I don't think a neurotypical person could even easily "fake" it. If you fit in with neurodivergent people, you probably are yourself. People have always been gay, trans, neurodivergent, whatever. They just had to hide. Once they are tolerated by society, reactionaries will spread moral panic saying "Everyone is X these days". There were always who they were.

gcau 1y ago

>Both autism are ADHD are vastly under-diagnosed especially in women and adults. How is this known or proven?

cardanome 1y ago
We can do science and extrapolate data: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ > As of 2018, 2.94% of 10- to 14-year-olds had a diagnosis (1 in 34), vs. 0.02% aged 70+ (1 in 6000). https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8870038/ > The ratio of males to females with ASD is generally quoted as 4:1,[..]The true male-to-female ratio appears to be 3:4. Eighty percent of females remain undiagnosed at age 18, which has serious consequences for the mental health of young women.

dns_snek 1y ago

> There are very hard criteria for an diagnosis and it requires that every other explanation for the behavior is excluded before a diagnosis can be made. Is this standard truly being upheld? Most stories I've heard from people in US & UK go something like "I filled out some forms, hopped on a call/saw a psychiatrist for 30-60 minutes and walked out with a diagnosis and a prescription". Sometimes people even joke about how their psychiatrist talked to them for 10 minutes and concluded that they definitely have ADHD, and while that might be the case, it doesn't seem like many professionals are being particularly thorough about the differential diagnosis and ruling out other causes. Personally I had to undergo relatively rigorous testing where they went through my entire medical history and administered about a dozen different neuropsychological tests which took about 5 hours total, over 2 months, multiple appointments, and then another month for them to analyze everything and come back to me with the diagnosis. Of course that doesn't mean that ADHD is overdiagnosed or that those diagnoses are wrong, but it doesn't seem like many places are being as rigorous as they're supposed to be? Am I missing anything?

cardanome 1y ago
I don't really know the situation in the US. Here in Germany it is for sure rigorous. I had three appointments and lots of questionnaires to fill out at home that were designed to exclude all kind of conditions. And with a diagnosis I was still far away from getting a prescription, that is whole other hurdle. As for the US, well the CDC says in the section for conditions that must be met: > The symptoms are not better explained by another mental disorder (such as a mood disorder, anxiety disorder, dissociative disorder, or a personality disorder). The symptoms do not happen only during the course of schizophrenia or another psychotic disorder. https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/adhd/diagnosis/index.html So it is pretty clear on that.
dkga 1y ago
“Prescription”?
- dns_snek 1y ago
  I don't understand the scare quotes, prescription for ADHD medication, typically psychostimulants.

unethical_ban 1y ago

Seeing shared experience is one thing, but I don't trust Shorts/Reels to be an authority on anything important like medical diagnoses. It should be like wikipedia: She should have a link to a scientific paper or doctor corroborating her entertainment skit. As I read through your entire comment, I see you might agree. And yes, I've seen that woman on Reels before, some of her observations I can confirm, such as "body double" or whatever it's called where you are more productive when interacting with someone else, even if they aren't helping you with something. Aside: I don't think my PCP is the #1 person to talk to regarding variations in ADHD treatment. I have adderall, which can help sometimes focus me on a task and bypass the anxiety of talking/typing through issues at work. But I loathe using it daily. I wonder if any other medication works differently. Ritalin is different but similar.

yieldcrv 1y ago

kind of like coughing sure, people with the common cold do it but so do people with at least 100 other ailments

forgotoldacc 1y ago

> The fear of over-diagnosis makes no sense. It feels rational to me, especially coming from a society where everything that's considered a syndrome needs to be treated and washed away with medication. Back in the 90s, every boy who laughed or had any sort of fun in my school was recommended to be put in ritalin and other ADHD meds. I was a quiet kid, but like any child, had a moment of goofiness here and there. And those moments were far less common than my peers. Despite that, my parents got calls from a teacher saying my 10 year old self needs to be put on meds because I clearly have an issue. I'm glad my parents told them to buzz off. But more than half the other boys in my class were drugged up. Even as a kid, I thought that was strange. Looking back, it's horrifying. I think the suggestion amongst some groups that everyone must visit psychologists and psychiatrists and must be evaluated and must be diagnosed is kind of bizarre. Some people struggle and it should be easier to get help. But some people are a bit weird, they grow into it as part of their identity, and being labeled as having some sort of neurodivergence and being told they can fix it is surely more damaging than just letting them be a bit strange. If you've got autism and the biggest thing that stands out is the way you walk... I don't think dragging a kid to a doctor to be told they're not normal is really all that beneficial.

cardanome 1y ago
> If you've got autism and the biggest thing that stands out is the way you walk... I don't think dragging a kid to a doctor to be told they're not normal is really all that beneficial. There are very strict criteria on how people are to be diagnosed. More importantly you are NOT getting diagnosed if you are just happy and don't need any help. You can NOT be diagnosed with autism without any support needs. Same as you can not be diagnosed ADHD if it causes you not trouble at all. > being labeled as having some sort of neurodivergence and being told they can fix it is surely more damaging than just letting them be a bit strange. You want to know what going through life without an diagnosis for your neurodivergence looks like? People hate you. You don't know why but they just do. You are wrong. Everyone else seems to know when to say the right thing at the right time but you don't. You are some weird alien that does not belong. You try to memorize things to say, copy how other people act, it works but the mask often slips. You must be hyper-vigilant in every social situation to not let the real you slip out. It becomes so automatic that you don't even remember who you are anymore. It is exhausting, so exhausting and alienating. You crash and burn from time to time. Things that are easy for other people. You can't even fold your laundry. You are lazy. If you would just apply yourself, you could do so much. Achieve so much. But you don't. You lack discipline. Everything you try you just give up after a while. You read a bunch of self-help books, you learn you to organize your time, all the tricks but they never work for you. You are a failure. Not being diagnosed is absolute hell. Just being able to know why you struggle, to learn coping strategies that work with your brain, to talk with people with the same struggles, to finally find people that understand you, is absolutely life changing. And no, it is not about fixing people. You can not fix ADHD, people are born with it and that is how they are. It is about them getting the help they need and embracing that people are different. > I was a quiet kid Quiet kids can have ADHD > my parents got calls from a teacher Teachers don't diagnose children. They don't decide whether you need to get medicated or not. Furthermore, yes people where probably very ignorant about ADHD in your childhood, we understand it much better now. > drugged up That not how ADHD meds work. They can give you the super power to fold your laundry in a single business day, they don't get you high. Some people hate how they feel but for many they work great. Medication is just one option, you can also learn better coping skills through therapy or coaching. > It feels rational to me As someone who was diagnosed late, it seems more like ignorance to me.

strken 1y ago

> Yes, neurodivergence can only be diagnosed based on how you work on the inside. I don't think this is exactly true. We don't involuntarily commit people to psych wards after a long and complicated investigation to understand their mental state. Diagnoses can be made extremely quickly and with little understanding of the interior state of a patient. > Both autism are ADHD are vastly under-diagnosed especially in women and adults. I've heard it said that both autism and ADHD are like height, in that it's not clear where the boundary sits. We all agree that some people are tall and some people are short. When someone claims that there are a vast number of undiagnosed tall people, though, to what extent is it because we're not reaching enough people vs because our diagnostic threshold for tallness has lowered?

cardanome 1y ago
> because our diagnostic threshold for tallness has lowered? The threshold for being diagnosed as autistic has increased in recent years. As Asperger is not a separate diagnosis anymore but is part of ASD, some people that might have gotten an Asperger diagnosis would not get an ASD diagnosis today. Again, a diagnosis requires that you have care needs. If you don't, you will not be diagnosed. There is no slippery slope of lowering standards. There have always been neurodivergent people. Not long ago, here in Germany autistic children were systematically murdered during the Nazi regime. The difference is that neurodivergent people don't have to hide anymore as much. We finally have at least a bit of a voice.
- strken 1y ago
  > Again, a diagnosis requires that you have care needs. If you don't, you will not be diagnosed. There is no slippery slope of lowering standards. I don't understand how a slippery slope of lowering standards and not diagnosing anyone unless they have care needs are mutually exclusive. Our standard of care for basically everything has increased. I think you and I both agree that autistic people in the 1960s were less well cared for than in the 1990s, and that treatment has further improved today. > There have always been neurodivergent people. Not long ago, here in Germany autistic children were systematically murdered during the Nazi regime...The difference is that neurodivergent people don't have to hide anymore as much. We finally have at least a bit of a voice. This is interesting, because I agree with every individual statement, but it's still not supporting evidence for a change in diagnostic threshold.

chneu 1y ago

Autism is being over diagnosed in the US for sure. It might be different in Germany but I know plenty of folks who have been diagnosed autistic after just a conversation or two with their therapist. I know multiple therapists who have had parents try to get their kids an autism diagnosis because they think it'll help on admissions to colleges. So be aware that what YOU experience is not what is happening elsewhere. Autism is super cool on social media right now. So while the people who likely should be getting diagnosed likely aren't, many people who don't have autism are happily getting the diagnosis so they can fit in a group or have that label. Be aware that in the US, many people shop around to get the diagnosis they want and many doctors have happy to appease them. That's why antibiotics are massively over rxed in the US. Mental health is no different.

cardanome 1y ago
That sounds like the same moral panic trans people face. Oh, the children are turned trans by social media and all that shite. No mentally healthy person is going to pretend to be autistic. There is still a huge stigma against it despite some parts of social media being progressive. I don't think a neurotypical person could even easily "fake" it. If you fit in with neurodivergent people, you probably are yourself. People have always been gay, trans, neurodivergent, whatever. They just had to hide. Once they are tolerated by society, reactionaries will spread moral panic saying "Everyone is X these days". There were always who they were.