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My favorite theory that I've seen to explain these has been that they were a token showing the prowess/status of a metalworker or stoneworker - a kind of verifi

My favorite theory that I've seen to explain these has been that they were a token showing the prowess/status of a metalworker or stoneworker - a kind of verifier of skill of the individual. In a mostly pre-literate society, where craftsmen could be itinerant, this theory made the most sense to me.

deadbabe 1y ago
Doesn’t explain why mostly women were buried with these.
- m0llusk 1y ago
  And most have been found around present day France.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
pegasus 1y ago
I would expect a lot more variability if this would be the purpose. For example, instead of corner balls, why not be a little creative and make them cones. Also, the holes in the faces always being of different sizes is peculiar. Then there's the icosahedron with balls of different sizes. Reading the wikipedia page only deepens the sense of mystery, but some use in astrological divination or the like seems most plausible to me.
- dennyabraham 1y ago
  While I don't endorse this particular theory, considering that something like a gotshall block or a fizzbuzz is proof of a certain skillset, it is certainly possible the corner balls being cones is not a comparable proof of work
  - pegasus 1y ago
    Still doesn't make sense to me. Those programming tasks have to be a certain way because they have a very specific use outside of the testing. If that's what you imply, then we're none the wiser, still having left unexplained what that use might be.
    - dennyabraham 1y ago
      In the masterproof example, the purpose of the sphered joint is whether the maker can draw and round every sphere while not compromising the rest of the shape. It is not the end shape that is important, it is how the craftsperson is able to execute it
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  Expecting variability is a weak argument in my book. If there is some benchmark for skill, like a dovetail joint, the craftsperson is not going to "go rogue" but rather show the discipline required to exactly recreate this thing. (So many modelers try to recreate the Millennium Falcon from scratch for example when, given their skills at modeling, I've never understood why they all just don't go off and come up with a creation of their own design. But it's kind of a Hello World for modeling perhaps?)
pram 1y ago
I can't believe it wasn't documented anywhere at least once. We can piece together Roman GDP from records, but no one ever said what these gizmos were??
- brazzy 1y ago
  Literacy was much lower, and writing much more expensive. People didn't communicate through writing unless it was really necessary, and were generally much more selective about what to write down. So of this was a tradition among craftsman, taught and shown off in person, nobody would have seen a need to write about it. Whereas tax records were how the state ensured it got its money and citizens proved they had already paid - everyone wanted that written down.
  - wl 1y ago
    Tax records don't get copied over and over again by generations of scribes.
    - brazzy 1y ago
      True, but the sheer amount that was produced means that some, through fortunate circumstances, have been preserved to the present day: https://www.richardcarrier.info/papyrus/ https://www.richardcarrier.info/papyrus/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/44968442 https://www.jstor.org/stable/44968442
- baggy_trough 1y ago
  Only 3 library shelves worth of classical Roman writing survives.
  - jfengel 1y ago
    Are you referring to manuscripts? Or to some specific period? Because we've got rather a lot of text from Rome in general.
    - 1y ago
nemo 1y ago
The big question there is why these metalworkers showed up in only one part of the empire, one of the less wealthy regions, and not one with some unique needs for bronze casting. Note that these are cast bronze, using the term "metalwork" conflates smiths who work with tin, gold, bronze, and iron, but those were different professions. This isn't a blacksmith showing off his ironworking skills, it's a person of a different profession casting fine bronze. Hard to say why you'd have mendicant bronze workers casting things, I don't know of any records of but it's a very limited area for so many finds, while this same work was needed all over the empire, why nothing in Spain, Italy, North Africa, or the eastern provinces where they'd need the same? Why just that one highly restricted range within Rome that coincides with Gallia and Britain?
- jjallen 1y ago
  I have always thought that if they were candle holders it would make perfect sense. And they would be much more needed in the northern part of the Roman Empire than southern. And this is why no accompanying materials have been found in the dirt. Because wax is malleable and would disintegrate over time. But yeah why would they have ever gone to the south?
  - JKCalhoun 1y ago
    Then the balls on the corners were merely decorative? Maybe.
  - tengwar2 1y ago
    You don't need 12 holes of varying sizes to hold a candle, and these would have been disproportionately expensive to make for that role. The problem is that one can poke similar holes in other proposals. Personally I favour the "proof of skill" explanation but there are also arguments against that.
  - nemo 1y ago
    The Romans mostly used oil lamps rather than candles, the use of candles as a popular light source developed among early medieval Christians who started to use them in their churches after the olive oil supplies dried up in the late/post Western Roman empire. These were too early to be tied to candle use (and strangely distributed geographically). Also the Romans had no kind of industrial standardization or production, every candle was hand made and unique, all the wax/tallow was valuable, so the later Romans who would have used candles would have used a candle holder designed to capture any lost fuel to reuse.
somat 1y ago
Apprentice projects are still a thing where the apprentice system is still in place. It varies depending on industry but you will be given a low level mostly pointless high tolerance task you must complete(make a perfect(we will verify it with a micrometer) cube out of steel using only a hand file), this mainly proves you have the correct mindset to work in that industry. Having said that, these dodecahedrons are complex enough, they would probably a journeyman level project at minimum. Personally, I like the theory they are surveying/measuring instruments, probably coupled with enough mysticism and numerology that decorative versions were made to satisfy the non-professional market. think something like masonic emblems. Noting that the guilds for these sort of things were full of trade secrets and obscure rituals.

deadbabe 1y ago

Doesn’t explain why mostly women were buried with these.

m0llusk 1y ago
And most have been found around present day France.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

pegasus 1y ago

I would expect a lot more variability if this would be the purpose. For example, instead of corner balls, why not be a little creative and make them cones. Also, the holes in the faces always being of different sizes is peculiar. Then there's the icosahedron with balls of different sizes. Reading the wikipedia page only deepens the sense of mystery, but some use in astrological divination or the like seems most plausible to me.

dennyabraham 1y ago
While I don't endorse this particular theory, considering that something like a gotshall block or a fizzbuzz is proof of a certain skillset, it is certainly possible the corner balls being cones is not a comparable proof of work
- pegasus 1y ago
  Still doesn't make sense to me. Those programming tasks have to be a certain way because they have a very specific use outside of the testing. If that's what you imply, then we're none the wiser, still having left unexplained what that use might be.
  - dennyabraham 1y ago
    In the masterproof example, the purpose of the sphered joint is whether the maker can draw and round every sphere while not compromising the rest of the shape. It is not the end shape that is important, it is how the craftsperson is able to execute it
JKCalhoun 1y ago
Expecting variability is a weak argument in my book. If there is some benchmark for skill, like a dovetail joint, the craftsperson is not going to "go rogue" but rather show the discipline required to exactly recreate this thing. (So many modelers try to recreate the Millennium Falcon from scratch for example when, given their skills at modeling, I've never understood why they all just don't go off and come up with a creation of their own design. But it's kind of a Hello World for modeling perhaps?)

pram 1y ago

I can't believe it wasn't documented anywhere at least once. We can piece together Roman GDP from records, but no one ever said what these gizmos were??

brazzy 1y ago
Literacy was much lower, and writing much more expensive. People didn't communicate through writing unless it was really necessary, and were generally much more selective about what to write down. So of this was a tradition among craftsman, taught and shown off in person, nobody would have seen a need to write about it. Whereas tax records were how the state ensured it got its money and citizens proved they had already paid - everyone wanted that written down.
- wl 1y ago
  Tax records don't get copied over and over again by generations of scribes.
  - brazzy 1y ago
    True, but the sheer amount that was produced means that some, through fortunate circumstances, have been preserved to the present day: https://www.richardcarrier.info/papyrus/ https://www.richardcarrier.info/papyrus/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/44968442 https://www.jstor.org/stable/44968442
baggy_trough 1y ago
Only 3 library shelves worth of classical Roman writing survives.
- jfengel 1y ago
  Are you referring to manuscripts? Or to some specific period? Because we've got rather a lot of text from Rome in general.
  - 1y ago

nemo 1y ago

The big question there is why these metalworkers showed up in only one part of the empire, one of the less wealthy regions, and not one with some unique needs for bronze casting. Note that these are cast bronze, using the term "metalwork" conflates smiths who work with tin, gold, bronze, and iron, but those were different professions. This isn't a blacksmith showing off his ironworking skills, it's a person of a different profession casting fine bronze. Hard to say why you'd have mendicant bronze workers casting things, I don't know of any records of but it's a very limited area for so many finds, while this same work was needed all over the empire, why nothing in Spain, Italy, North Africa, or the eastern provinces where they'd need the same? Why just that one highly restricted range within Rome that coincides with Gallia and Britain?

jjallen 1y ago
I have always thought that if they were candle holders it would make perfect sense. And they would be much more needed in the northern part of the Roman Empire than southern. And this is why no accompanying materials have been found in the dirt. Because wax is malleable and would disintegrate over time. But yeah why would they have ever gone to the south?
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  Then the balls on the corners were merely decorative? Maybe.
- tengwar2 1y ago
  You don't need 12 holes of varying sizes to hold a candle, and these would have been disproportionately expensive to make for that role. The problem is that one can poke similar holes in other proposals. Personally I favour the "proof of skill" explanation but there are also arguments against that.
- nemo 1y ago
  The Romans mostly used oil lamps rather than candles, the use of candles as a popular light source developed among early medieval Christians who started to use them in their churches after the olive oil supplies dried up in the late/post Western Roman empire. These were too early to be tied to candle use (and strangely distributed geographically). Also the Romans had no kind of industrial standardization or production, every candle was hand made and unique, all the wax/tallow was valuable, so the later Romans who would have used candles would have used a candle holder designed to capture any lost fuel to reuse.

somat 1y ago

Apprentice projects are still a thing where the apprentice system is still in place. It varies depending on industry but you will be given a low level mostly pointless high tolerance task you must complete(make a perfect(we will verify it with a micrometer) cube out of steel using only a hand file), this mainly proves you have the correct mindset to work in that industry. Having said that, these dodecahedrons are complex enough, they would probably a journeyman level project at minimum. Personally, I like the theory they are surveying/measuring instruments, probably coupled with enough mysticism and numerology that decorative versions were made to satisfy the non-professional market. think something like masonic emblems. Noting that the guilds for these sort of things were full of trade secrets and obscure rituals.