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> I would still count it as the Linux kernel. This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there.

MatthewPhillips 1y ago
I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.
- fsflover 1y ago
  It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.
  - hagbard_c 1y ago
    Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
      - jraph 1y ago
        What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
        fsflover 1y ago
        Touché.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
        jraph 1y ago
        > > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. > Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ Wait, no, Termux is not stuck at Gingerbread, it's stuck at Android 9 (Pie). Agree with the rest though. Android is a sinking ship, not only the Termux issue, but the increasing number of basic apps and features that are proprietary and not part of AOSP. I hope we'll be able to be caught by Linux Mobile or something like this in time.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        Apologies! I originally posted Android 9 Pie (2018), but had doubt & switched to the SDK version. My mistake!! The AI age where the AI needs to be able to peak into all the apps will hopefully create a new API / MCP age, new machine-to-machine work. I'm not sure how much of what Google is doing today is proprietary, adding hooks into all their apps and creating some means for Gemini to access that all, and how much is paved road & available for others. Very curious to know more.
        zozbot234 1y ago
    - thesuperbigfrog 1y ago
      Termux turns my Android phone into a programmable pocket computer. https://termux.dev/en/ https://termux.dev/en/ Please give it a try and if you find it useful, donate.
  - jraph 1y ago
    You are talking about the OS while the person you are discussing with is speaking about the kernel. The Linux kernel has its own merits outside standard Linux userspace. I agree, saying that the fact standard Linux distros and Android share the same kernel has no single meaningful implication really undervalues the Linux kernel. I also agree that it's important to keep in mind the two OSes are mostly incompatible. The two OSes sharing the kernel have practical implications, including (theoretically) seeing improvements coming from Android dev in the kernel that can benefit standard linux distros, and things like Termux or Waydroid.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      So when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Would you count WSL?
      - jraph 1y ago
        I'm not sure why you are asking me all this, this is beside my points. > So I reject the link here. > when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Likely not. > Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Why not? Depends what's your concern. > Would you count WSL? Depends what you want to evaluate.
        fsflover 1y ago
        > Depends what you want to evaluate. This is exactly my question. You said the discussion's about the kernel. Why do you want to evaluate its usage? Which conclusions are you going to draw? Because when talking about the OS, you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software.
        jraph 1y ago
        > Why do you want to evaluate its usage? I never implied this. This subthread is about countering your affirmation that Android being based on the linux kernel has no single meaningful implication. It's not anymore about evaluating usage and counting stuff. This all started with a commenter writing "Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense", which is wrong, or at least highly misleading and confusing (I do agree with this commenter about the fact that we are talking about forks that don't upstream their shit, which does have severe implications). You could say that Android systems usually don't run mainline Linux kernel. > you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software. I wish :-) And I wouldn't generally include Android in the free software family, few people run Replicant or some Android flavor without the Google services, let alone without proprietary blobs. (I would count blob-free Android)
  - vkazanov 1y ago
    In practice Linux is a family of different OSes. Sometimes POSIX-centric, sometimes not. What do you even count as "an OS"? Linux + gnu userland + Gnome? Or is it KDE? Embedded Linux? Does ChromeOS count? LG's WebOS?
    - oblio 1y ago
      Desktop Linux has a clear scope, and we all know. We can act like we don't, but we do. Can I install LibreOffice on Android? Gnome, KDE, Xfce? Which percentage of packages in the Debian repos can I use on Android?
      - vkazanov 1y ago
        Linux is a kernel, that's it. There is an organisation maintaining it, and also the trademark. There is also a major family of OSes building on the kernel + gnu userspace, which you probably call "desktop linux". In my house there are dozens of devices running linux the kernel: routers, a tv set, washing machines, NAS, printers, etc. Some have the full gnu posix-like stack, others are very barebones. Then, there's is a bunch of android devices running the kernel as well. What's wrong with all of these? At what point should i draw a line?
        palata 1y ago
        To me, Desktop Linux is the Linux I run on my work computer: the one that has a screen, a keyboard and a mouse. It is based on Linux (obviously), the GNU userland to some extent, and then it has a graphical environment (usually based on Xorg or Wayland). This is different from embedded Linux or Linux on a server. And this is different from Linux-the-kernel (which runs on Android).
        vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, you came up with a rather vague definition. Xorg OR wayland. Gtk or qt? Which set of tools do you expect to be available? All of that is just too nebulous. Linux is something that runs the kernel, that's about it. I mean, I've been using linux for all of my life, servers, at home, for work, embedded dev, corporate environment, as a manager and as a dev, etc. What I see is that linux as already everywhere. Desktop space is the only OS market where non-linux OSes are in the majority, and maybe this is why people are so excited about these pointless numbers.
palata 1y ago
No software compiled for arm will run on x86. No software depending on Qt will run without Qt, even if you have GTK. Doesn't mean they don't run the same kernel, does it?
- fsflover 1y ago
  You can recompile software for a different architecture relatively easily. You can't easily rewrite GNU/Linux software to run on Android.
  - palata 1y ago
    And you can't easily rewrite Qt software to use GTK. Still they both run on Linux.
    - msgodel 1y ago
      You probably could if Android weren't intentionally constrained by Google to prevent it. That's what fsflover is trying to point out: Android is more of a television firmware than an OS and counting it like a PC OS makes very little sense because you can't use it like one. EDIT: I think you still don't understand. It doesn't matter what hardware Android runs on it's written to be appliance firmware. Even if you put it on a laptop it just turns the laptop into what is essentially a television.
      - palata 1y ago
        So I was saying that Android runs the Linux kernel, period. But now that you say it, Android is very much a full OS. It's not a Linux Desktop, but it is a full OS. And televisions running Android are called "smart TVs", precisely because they run a full OS instead of a minimal firmware like they used to. Google is working on bringing Android to the Desktop, and Samsung already does it. As in: you plug your smartphone into a docking station and it is suddenly a Desktop computer.
assbuttbuttass 1y ago
You can run Linux software on Android via termux, or the amazing UserLAnd app even lets you install an entire distro userland with several choices (Debian, Arch, etc)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
MYEUHD 1y ago
Checkout https://postmarketos.org https://postmarketos.org Those vendor provided kernel trees let you run a real Linux distribution on your phone.
- zozbot234 1y ago
  PostmarketOS doesn't use downstream kernel trees because those are useless for anything that's not AOSP-based (unless you use terrible hacks like libhybris) and are often not upgradable to newer versions. They rely on "close-to-mainline" kernels that are much closer to real Linux.
  - MYEUHD 1y ago
    The community / testing devices use close to mainline kernels. But there are hundreds of devices in the downstream category. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream Sure, they're less usable than mainline devices, but it's possible to run linux with a vendor-provided old kernel.
jchw 1y ago
That's not even true. You can use typical Linux software inside of a chroot, like with Termux.
- conradev 1y ago
  Yep, and in the reverse, you don't need a separate kernel to run Android software on Linux: https://waydro.id https://waydro.id
  - udev4096 1y ago
    Waydroid is garbage. It's so bad. Better use redroid: https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc
    - fsflover 1y ago
      Waydroid actually allows me to run Android software on my GNU/Linux phone.
    - return_to_monke 1y ago
      You failed to provide any reason why waydroid is "so bad".
- longfingers 1y ago
  Whether your virtual container is lightweight, heavyweight or from the cloud doesn't really change anything from a regular user's perspective. You aren't installing software in the main environment you are looking at, running a desktop on, etc.
  - jchw 1y ago
    Recall the post above mine: > > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. > This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there. Termux is notable is because you in fact don't need a virtual machine at all, or even a proper container. Even the "chroot" aspect is basically just to create a facade to make software work with less effort; it's not literally needed. And you can indeed run typical graphical Linux software as long as you have a compatible display server; Termux offers an X server as an add-on. This doesn't mean that Android is the same as desktop Linux, but that's not the point here. The point is that Android runs the Linux kernel, and not just in name only. You actually can make use of the Linux aspect of Android, which many of us do. It's possible that Google will lock down Android further in the future and make the host Linux environment less usable for stock Linux apps, but today you can run quite a lot of typical CLI and even desktop Linux software directly in Android with minimal fuss. Even if it's a little cumbersome, it's quite useful in a pinch. I'd argue whether you can readily install software to the Linux host environment is also neither here nor there. For an immutable abroot setup like SteamOS, you can't really install directly to the host environment, but in my mind that does not make it any less "desktop Linux" or Linux kernel based.
udev4096 1y ago
This is the reason I hate the recent surge in linux desktop users. People jumping in without allocating enough time to get familiar with the ecosystem

MatthewPhillips 1y ago

I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.

fsflover 1y ago
It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.
- hagbard_c 1y ago
  Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
    - jraph 1y ago
      What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        Touché.
      - jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
        jraph 1y ago
        > > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. > Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ Wait, no, Termux is not stuck at Gingerbread, it's stuck at Android 9 (Pie). Agree with the rest though. Android is a sinking ship, not only the Termux issue, but the increasing number of basic apps and features that are proprietary and not part of AOSP. I hope we'll be able to be caught by Linux Mobile or something like this in time.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        Apologies! I originally posted Android 9 Pie (2018), but had doubt & switched to the SDK version. My mistake!! The AI age where the AI needs to be able to peak into all the apps will hopefully create a new API / MCP age, new machine-to-machine work. I'm not sure how much of what Google is doing today is proprietary, adding hooks into all their apps and creating some means for Gemini to access that all, and how much is paved road & available for others. Very curious to know more.
        zozbot234 1y ago
  - thesuperbigfrog 1y ago
    Termux turns my Android phone into a programmable pocket computer. https://termux.dev/en/ https://termux.dev/en/ Please give it a try and if you find it useful, donate.
- jraph 1y ago
  You are talking about the OS while the person you are discussing with is speaking about the kernel. The Linux kernel has its own merits outside standard Linux userspace. I agree, saying that the fact standard Linux distros and Android share the same kernel has no single meaningful implication really undervalues the Linux kernel. I also agree that it's important to keep in mind the two OSes are mostly incompatible. The two OSes sharing the kernel have practical implications, including (theoretically) seeing improvements coming from Android dev in the kernel that can benefit standard linux distros, and things like Termux or Waydroid.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    So when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Would you count WSL?
    - jraph 1y ago
      I'm not sure why you are asking me all this, this is beside my points. > So I reject the link here. > when somebody says "Linux reaches X market share", are they talking about the kernel? Likely not. > Why does it even matter how much the kernel is used? Why not? Depends what's your concern. > Would you count WSL? Depends what you want to evaluate.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        > Depends what you want to evaluate. This is exactly my question. You said the discussion's about the kernel. Why do you want to evaluate its usage? Which conclusions are you going to draw? Because when talking about the OS, you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software.
        jraph 1y ago
        > Why do you want to evaluate its usage? I never implied this. This subthread is about countering your affirmation that Android being based on the linux kernel has no single meaningful implication. It's not anymore about evaluating usage and counting stuff. This all started with a commenter writing "Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense", which is wrong, or at least highly misleading and confusing (I do agree with this commenter about the fact that we are talking about forks that don't upstream their shit, which does have severe implications). You could say that Android systems usually don't run mainline Linux kernel. > you can conclude that Windows and MacOS start falling behind the free software. I wish :-) And I wouldn't generally include Android in the free software family, few people run Replicant or some Android flavor without the Google services, let alone without proprietary blobs. (I would count blob-free Android)
- vkazanov 1y ago
  In practice Linux is a family of different OSes. Sometimes POSIX-centric, sometimes not. What do you even count as "an OS"? Linux + gnu userland + Gnome? Or is it KDE? Embedded Linux? Does ChromeOS count? LG's WebOS?
  - oblio 1y ago
    Desktop Linux has a clear scope, and we all know. We can act like we don't, but we do. Can I install LibreOffice on Android? Gnome, KDE, Xfce? Which percentage of packages in the Debian repos can I use on Android?
    - vkazanov 1y ago
      Linux is a kernel, that's it. There is an organisation maintaining it, and also the trademark. There is also a major family of OSes building on the kernel + gnu userspace, which you probably call "desktop linux". In my house there are dozens of devices running linux the kernel: routers, a tv set, washing machines, NAS, printers, etc. Some have the full gnu posix-like stack, others are very barebones. Then, there's is a bunch of android devices running the kernel as well. What's wrong with all of these? At what point should i draw a line?
      - palata 1y ago
        To me, Desktop Linux is the Linux I run on my work computer: the one that has a screen, a keyboard and a mouse. It is based on Linux (obviously), the GNU userland to some extent, and then it has a graphical environment (usually based on Xorg or Wayland). This is different from embedded Linux or Linux on a server. And this is different from Linux-the-kernel (which runs on Android).
        vkazanov 1y ago
        Well, you came up with a rather vague definition. Xorg OR wayland. Gtk or qt? Which set of tools do you expect to be available? All of that is just too nebulous. Linux is something that runs the kernel, that's about it. I mean, I've been using linux for all of my life, servers, at home, for work, embedded dev, corporate environment, as a manager and as a dev, etc. What I see is that linux as already everywhere. Desktop space is the only OS market where non-linux OSes are in the majority, and maybe this is why people are so excited about these pointless numbers.

palata 1y ago

No software compiled for arm will run on x86. No software depending on Qt will run without Qt, even if you have GTK. Doesn't mean they don't run the same kernel, does it?

fsflover 1y ago
You can recompile software for a different architecture relatively easily. You can't easily rewrite GNU/Linux software to run on Android.
- palata 1y ago
  And you can't easily rewrite Qt software to use GTK. Still they both run on Linux.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    You probably could if Android weren't intentionally constrained by Google to prevent it. That's what fsflover is trying to point out: Android is more of a television firmware than an OS and counting it like a PC OS makes very little sense because you can't use it like one. EDIT: I think you still don't understand. It doesn't matter what hardware Android runs on it's written to be appliance firmware. Even if you put it on a laptop it just turns the laptop into what is essentially a television.
    - palata 1y ago
      So I was saying that Android runs the Linux kernel, period. But now that you say it, Android is very much a full OS. It's not a Linux Desktop, but it is a full OS. And televisions running Android are called "smart TVs", precisely because they run a full OS instead of a minimal firmware like they used to. Google is working on bringing Android to the Desktop, and Samsung already does it. As in: you plug your smartphone into a docking station and it is suddenly a Desktop computer.

assbuttbuttass 1y ago

You can run Linux software on Android via termux, or the amazing UserLAnd app even lets you install an entire distro userland with several choices (Debian, Arch, etc)

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

MYEUHD 1y ago

Checkout https://postmarketos.org https://postmarketos.org Those vendor provided kernel trees let you run a real Linux distribution on your phone.

zozbot234 1y ago
PostmarketOS doesn't use downstream kernel trees because those are useless for anything that's not AOSP-based (unless you use terrible hacks like libhybris) and are often not upgradable to newer versions. They rely on "close-to-mainline" kernels that are much closer to real Linux.
- MYEUHD 1y ago
  The community / testing devices use close to mainline kernels. But there are hundreds of devices in the downstream category. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream Sure, they're less usable than mainline devices, but it's possible to run linux with a vendor-provided old kernel.

jchw 1y ago

That's not even true. You can use typical Linux software inside of a chroot, like with Termux.

conradev 1y ago
Yep, and in the reverse, you don't need a separate kernel to run Android software on Linux: https://waydro.id https://waydro.id
- udev4096 1y ago
  Waydroid is garbage. It's so bad. Better use redroid: https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Waydroid actually allows me to run Android software on my GNU/Linux phone.
  - return_to_monke 1y ago
    You failed to provide any reason why waydroid is "so bad".
longfingers 1y ago
Whether your virtual container is lightweight, heavyweight or from the cloud doesn't really change anything from a regular user's perspective. You aren't installing software in the main environment you are looking at, running a desktop on, etc.
- jchw 1y ago
  Recall the post above mine: > > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. > This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there. Termux is notable is because you in fact don't need a virtual machine at all, or even a proper container. Even the "chroot" aspect is basically just to create a facade to make software work with less effort; it's not literally needed. And you can indeed run typical graphical Linux software as long as you have a compatible display server; Termux offers an X server as an add-on. This doesn't mean that Android is the same as desktop Linux, but that's not the point here. The point is that Android runs the Linux kernel, and not just in name only. You actually can make use of the Linux aspect of Android, which many of us do. It's possible that Google will lock down Android further in the future and make the host Linux environment less usable for stock Linux apps, but today you can run quite a lot of typical CLI and even desktop Linux software directly in Android with minimal fuss. Even if it's a little cumbersome, it's quite useful in a pinch. I'd argue whether you can readily install software to the Linux host environment is also neither here nor there. For an immutable abroot setup like SteamOS, you can't really install directly to the host environment, but in my mind that does not make it any less "desktop Linux" or Linux kernel based.

udev4096 1y ago

This is the reason I hate the recent surge in linux desktop users. People jumping in without allocating enough time to get familiar with the ecosystem