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I agree with your points, except this: > thanks to the Steam Deck [...] but I would be reluctant to call that Linux Desktop anymore than I would call Android a

by palata 1y ago

I agree with your points, except this: > thanks to the Steam Deck [...] but I would be reluctant to call that Linux Desktop anymore than I would call Android an uptick for Linux. The Steam Deck very much runs Linux Desktop. Android runs the Linux kernel, but everything else is different. SteamOS is a Linux distribution based on Arch. If you run your Steam Deck in "desktop mode", it is very much a Linux Desktop (with a read-only system and A/B updates etc, but still).

zozbot234 1y ago
Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense, pretty much every downstream kernel has millions of lines of patched code that will never make it upstream in their current form. Of course, that's no different from mostly any other "Linux" embedded device, but it's very different indeed from what's standard on desktop systems.
- palata 1y ago
  I would still count it as the Linux kernel. They don't change the syscall API, it's really mostly at the BSP level, right? Said differently: if manufacturers cared to mainstream their changes, they could. And we would all be better for it.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there.
    - MatthewPhillips 1y ago
      I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.
        hagbard_c 1y ago
        Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
        fsflover 1y ago
        https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
        jraph 1y ago
        What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
        fsflover 1y ago
        Touché.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
    - palata 1y ago
      No software compiled for arm will run on x86. No software depending on Qt will run without Qt, even if you have GTK. Doesn't mean they don't run the same kernel, does it?
      - fsflover 1y ago
        You can recompile software for a different architecture relatively easily. You can't easily rewrite GNU/Linux software to run on Android.
        palata 1y ago
        And you can't easily rewrite Qt software to use GTK. Still they both run on Linux.
        msgodel 1y ago
        You probably could if Android weren't intentionally constrained by Google to prevent it. That's what fsflover is trying to point out: Android is more of a television firmware than an OS and counting it like a PC OS makes very little sense because you can't use it like one. EDIT: I think you still don't understand. It doesn't matter what hardware Android runs on it's written to be appliance firmware. Even if you put it on a laptop it just turns the laptop into what is essentially a television.
        palata 1y ago
        So I was saying that Android runs the Linux kernel, period. But now that you say it, Android is very much a full OS. It's not a Linux Desktop, but it is a full OS. And televisions running Android are called "smart TVs", precisely because they run a full OS instead of a minimal firmware like they used to. Google is working on bringing Android to the Desktop, and Samsung already does it. As in: you plug your smartphone into a docking station and it is suddenly a Desktop computer.
    - assbuttbuttass 1y ago
      You can run Linux software on Android via termux, or the amazing UserLAnd app even lets you install an entire distro userland with several choices (Debian, Arch, etc)
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - MYEUHD 1y ago
      Checkout https://postmarketos.org https://postmarketos.org Those vendor provided kernel trees let you run a real Linux distribution on your phone.
      - zozbot234 1y ago
        PostmarketOS doesn't use downstream kernel trees because those are useless for anything that's not AOSP-based (unless you use terrible hacks like libhybris) and are often not upgradable to newer versions. They rely on "close-to-mainline" kernels that are much closer to real Linux.
        MYEUHD 1y ago
        The community / testing devices use close to mainline kernels. But there are hundreds of devices in the downstream category. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream Sure, they're less usable than mainline devices, but it's possible to run linux with a vendor-provided old kernel.
    - jchw 1y ago
      That's not even true. You can use typical Linux software inside of a chroot, like with Termux.
      - conradev 1y ago
        Yep, and in the reverse, you don't need a separate kernel to run Android software on Linux: https://waydro.id https://waydro.id
        udev4096 1y ago
        Waydroid is garbage. It's so bad. Better use redroid: https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc
        fsflover 1y ago
        Waydroid actually allows me to run Android software on my GNU/Linux phone.
        return_to_monke 1y ago
        You failed to provide any reason why waydroid is "so bad".
      - longfingers 1y ago
        Whether your virtual container is lightweight, heavyweight or from the cloud doesn't really change anything from a regular user's perspective. You aren't installing software in the main environment you are looking at, running a desktop on, etc.
        jchw 1y ago
        Recall the post above mine: > > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. > This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there. Termux is notable is because you in fact don't need a virtual machine at all, or even a proper container. Even the "chroot" aspect is basically just to create a facade to make software work with less effort; it's not literally needed. And you can indeed run typical graphical Linux software as long as you have a compatible display server; Termux offers an X server as an add-on. This doesn't mean that Android is the same as desktop Linux, but that's not the point here. The point is that Android runs the Linux kernel, and not just in name only. You actually can make use of the Linux aspect of Android, which many of us do. It's possible that Google will lock down Android further in the future and make the host Linux environment less usable for stock Linux apps, but today you can run quite a lot of typical CLI and even desktop Linux software directly in Android with minimal fuss. Even if it's a little cumbersome, it's quite useful in a pinch. I'd argue whether you can readily install software to the Linux host environment is also neither here nor there. For an immutable abroot setup like SteamOS, you can't really install directly to the host environment, but in my mind that does not make it any less "desktop Linux" or Linux kernel based.
    - udev4096 1y ago
      This is the reason I hate the recent surge in linux desktop users. People jumping in without allocating enough time to get familiar with the ecosystem
  - Nevermark 1y ago
    Equating sub-desktop (based on typical use) Linux device instances, with desktop instances, would be similar to counting iOS, iPadOS and Vision OS instances with macOS instances. It would change the graph quite a bit to include all sub-desktop devices. Although that would also be an interesting comparison.
- cherryteastain 1y ago
  Android is Linux Android is not GNU/Linux. Article talks about GNU/Linux clearly. There is a point to the whole "I'd like to interject for a moment..." copypasta and Android's situation is the clearest illustration of it.
  - jraph 1y ago
    > There is a point to the whole "I'd like to interject for a moment..." copypasta and Android's situation is the clearest illustration of it. Well… :-) With you in spirit, but to add to the mess, one could argue Alpine (and Postmarket OS) is a standard Linux distro, but non GNU. "GNU/" cannot be used for clarifying things anymore.
  - throwaway0665 1y ago
    The article talks about browsers that use Linux in the user agent. This includes Alpine Linux - which is not GNU/Linux. It also splits out Chrome OS which is pretty much GNU/Linux.
    - blueflow 1y ago
      Alpine and GNU/Linux are Posix, while Android is not.
      - TheDong 1y ago
        I don't think Posix is very relevant to what is or isn't linux. macOS is more posix than NixOS, but everyone knows NixOS is a real linux distro, and macOS is not one.
        blueflow 1y ago
        Me neither! I was suggesting to use "Posix" instead of "Linux" because it properly separates GNU/Linux or other Linuxes from Android. Posix is what Android isn't but what MacOS is. What people erroneously try to call "Linux" because they don't have a better word.
  - 1y ago
- charcircuit 1y ago
  This has been repeated for so long that in the meantime enough of the changes have been upstreamed such that Android has been able to run with the upstream kernel since 6 years ago.
nerdjon 1y ago
Admittedly yeah SteamOS does walk that line, and I guess technically given that I think these numbers are based on browser data it would only be capturing the people that actually go into desktop mode (maybe?). But, I think there is a conversation around this to ask how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux (or even understand that it is Linux) vs would switch to a Windows version if it worked as well.
- palata 1y ago
  Even in the "normal mode", I would argue that it is still Linux Desktop. A Linux Desktop init system, with a Linux Desktop userspace, with a Linux Desktop libc, with the Linux Desktop security model, a Linux Desktop package manager, a Linux Desktop compositor (it uses something based on Wayland, right?), etc. If you open a terminal (or SSH into it), you're on Linux. It's very, very different on Android. > how many of the people using a Steam Deck [...] care that it is Linux Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big.
  - nerdjon 1y ago
    It is an interesting distinction, unlike Android I do admit that SteamOS is obviously contributing to Linux Desktop market share. I just think it is a complicated situation. From my understanding Xbox is running a version of Windows on their consoles (not talking about the new handhelds) tailor made for Xbox. But I would not call that adding to the Windows marketshare. iOS and iPadOS were started with versions of OSX and then modified (and clearly share some pieces) but we would not call either of those as contributing to Mac's marketshare. Obviously yes neither of those let you go into the traditional Mac or Windows desktop unlike SteamOS. But how the users perceive it is still important. > Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big. The problem is this works the other way also. If most users of the Steam Deck don't care or really know that it is Linux there is not much getting in the way of Microsoft coming in with their new handheld/OS and eating up that market if they can get the OS to perform as well. Put another way, if Valve decided (not saying they would, just asking a hypothetical) to either write their own OS or switch the underlying OS to Windows but kept the look of SteamOS as it behaved now and performance was the same. Would most users of the Steam Deck know or care? Personally I think for claims about the "linux desktop" to really matter, there has to be a conscious desire and care that it is Linux or it could disappear.
kube-system 1y ago
> The Steam Deck very much runs Linux Desktop. Android runs the Linux kernel, but everything else is different. Linux is a kernel.
- palata 1y ago
  Which is exactly why people here talk about "Linux Desktop". Linux is a kernel, Linux Desktop is some flavour of a full OS made to run on a PC, as opposed to e.g. embedded Linux or a Linux server. Not sure what your point is?
  - tuna74 1y ago
    Yeah, but ChromeOS is just as much "Desktop Linux" as Fedora Workstation.
    - microtonal 1y ago
      I think that's pretty pedantic. When most people here say 'Linux Desktop', they mean the Linux kernel, GNU(-ish) userland, Wayland/X11, and some desktop like GNOME, KDE or Mate. Though, I guess outside tech circles, people will just talk about Linux as the whole desktop OS. E.g. our municipality was promoting installing a Linux distribution to save Windows laptops after the Windows 10 apocalypse, and they just call it Linux. Even Wikipedia says: Linux (/ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-uuks[15]) is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991, by Linus Torvalds.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        But with respect to "Linux on the Desktop" in the context of marketshare, the interest is in seeing how far Linux has gone, not how far software running on Linux has gone. The only reason "ChromeOS" isn't considered Linux in this dataset is because Chrome has a flag that removes Linux from the user-agent on certain systems. If we were talking about Linux on the desktop casually, or were compiling a dataset through some other means where the kernel is a known quantity, we'd most certainly include said systems.
paulcole 1y ago
If your belief is that Steam Deck is Linux Desktop then you need to count Switch/PS5/Xbox as desktops as well and take those into account with the OS percentages.
- IsTom 1y ago
  Steam Deck has (accessible in menu by default) desktop mode that is just KDE with desktop icons and everything.
  - MostlyStable 1y ago
    I don't think his point was that it's not linux but rather that it's not a desktop, and if it counts as a desktop, then so do the rest of the gaming consoles runnining non-linux, which probably didn't get counted so the 5% would be lower.
    - westpfelia 1y ago
      Yea except I cant use my PS5 as a actual desktop. As in my steamdeck has a DE. My actual desktop is 4000 km away. So I have a monitor and mouse + KB plugged into my steamdeck Dock and its no different.
    - samrus 1y ago
      This is wrong. A steamdeck in desktop mode is exactly a desktop. You can write and execute code on it the exact same way you do on your laptop You cant do that on mobile devices or other handhelds
      - MostlyStable 1y ago
        Yes, you can, and yes, among the group of people represented on HN, I have no doubt that a fair number do use it this way.....but how typical is that? How often does the average steam deck owner use it as a desktop? How often does the average user leave the steam launcher? How often does the average user think of it as anything other than a gaming console? If all you care about is some very technical sense of "how many linux desktop environments are installed in the world", then none of these questions matter. But if the reason one is interested in the "Linux Desktop market share" is some level of interest in how people are using desktop computers, and when/if they are choosing them over competing OSs like Windows and MacOS, then these questions matter a lot. My guess is that 90% of SteamDeck owners don't think about the fact that it is Linux, barely every leave the steam launcher, and were they to be looking at getting a new desktop computer, their SteamDeck experience would not make them consider a linux distro vs. Windows or MacOS. In case it matters, I think more people should be running Linux than do, I think people over-estimate the difficulty of switching. I want the steam deck and SteamOS to be a gateway for people to switch in more contexts....I'm just skeptical that it's actually doing that more than a trivial amount.
scarface_74 1y ago
Market share only matters to geeks and commercial software vendors when deciding the total addressable market. A “Linux desktop” that is connected to a TV used to play games is not part of the market they care about.
jorvi 1y ago
You are being obtuse. 99% of Steam Deck users won't ever use the desktop mode except for maybe setting up emulation or Discord. In general, that makes Steam Deck users no more Linux users than people that use Android.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Android users are Linux users. So are Nintendo Switch users, the whole "can Linux game/be used for mobile" question is already answered.
  - Klonoar 1y ago
    Errr, isn’t the Switch BSD based? Or am I confusing it with the PS5?
    - dole 1y ago
      Switch’s network stack and some drivers are FreeBSD based, but that’s about it
  - jorvi 1y ago
    They aren't. Or not in the sense that it matters for traditional Linux desktop users, which is pretty much the only reason the metric gets brought up. Following your logic, people using the old TiVo setop boxes were also Linux users. Active Linux desktop adoption rates matter because it means companies will put money into ensuring their product works well on it. 1Password or Telegram is not going to meaningfully care about Steam Deck users. Or Android users vis a vis the Linux desktop client, because Android can't readily run Linux GUI applications :) It's honestly kind of nuts no one here is getting that.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      It really doesn't matter, you're again conflating the "kernel" and "desktop" distinction that's important here. It's like saying that XNU isn't being used by gamers - in practice you're correct, but the kernel is used to run millions of iPhone games. It doesn't matter for the adoption of macOS as a gaming platform, but the kernel is used for it. What matters, to me as a Linux user on the desktop, is that Nintendo and Google simply follow the license. I don't want them contributing patches to GNOME or Firefox, I want them downstream testing the kernel and contributing patches back for me to benefit from. And I do! My Switch Pro controller has official Linux support because of Nintendo. My day-to-day life on the desktop is improved by both company's contributions. The idea that Nintendo or Google are neglecting their duty because Photoshop doesn't run on Linux is a facetious argument. It might be a major issue for you, but clearly millions of Linux users are perfectly happy without those trappings. > Or Android users vis a vis the Linux desktop client, because Android can't readily run Linux GUI applications :) A travesty for Android's adoption metrics, one can only imagine. Thankfully for Linux users, the inverse is not so true: https://waydro.id/ https://waydro.id/
dartharva 1y ago
What even is "Linux Desktop" and why does Android not qualify as one? Many Android tablets (especially those with Samsung Dex) can certainly double up as desktops if its users were so willing, at least a lot more so than the Steam Deck.
- DanOpcode 1y ago
  Linux Desktop is something else. When Adobe considers if it's worth to port Photoshop to run on the Linux Desktop they don't include the market share of Android devices in that calculation. It's two completely different markets: desktop Linux apps and Android apps.
- rstuart4133 1y ago
  > What even is "Linux Desktop" and why does Android not qualify as one? A desktop is a computer that sits on your desk, as opposed to being held in your hand. In concrete terms, you can install Android Firefox on ChromeOS, and it runs fine. But it is near unusable because it turns out how people interact with desktops is very different to how people interact with phones. Also, desktop window managers tend to look like a protocol, rather than a library. That because every language can speak a protocol, but a library is written in one language and if you are lucky, someone many have provided bindings to that library to the language you are using. Android's display is effectively a Java library. If you want to talk to it from C or Python, you have to FFI to Java, which sucks from a number of perspectives. It's not how you would implement a general purpose desktop environment, and I've never met anyone who considers it to be one. That lack of flexibility shows up in a number of other ways. For example it's not difficult to implement an phone OS interface using XWindows or Wayland. Neither particularly care what window manager is running on top of them them. The reverse isn't true. You can't provide a the multi-window desktop environment on Android as it stands. None of this is true for ChromeOS. It uses Wayland under the hood, and so you can install and run Debian GUI apps on it. In fact I do that, and it mostly works as you would expect. Thus I consider ChromeOS to be true Linux Desktop environment, and it should be counted as one. It isn't mind you - but I think should be. Google seems to be in the process of replacing ChromeOS with Android, and as part of that process ChromeOS's ability to run Linux desktop apps is being ported to Android. If and when that happens, then I'd consider Android to be Linux desktop too.
Forgeties79 1y ago
Totally agree. It's what finally got me to commit to a linux machine for my recent desktop build!
koolala 1y ago
Typing this from my Steam Deck, its the best Linux desktop I've ever had. It's awesome to have my PC also be a handheld when laying in bed. I hope the Deckard has M+KB support too.
mcv 1y ago
The Steam Deck is absolutely a full blown Linux. But it's not a desktop. It's a handheld. Well, unless you hook a screen and keyboard to it, I suppose. No idea how many people do that. But if you do that, phones and tablets also become desktops.
- anon7000 1y ago
  I mean, a keyboard on iPad is way less powerful than a keyboard on steam deck. The steam deck can plug into a monitor and runs Plasma out of the box, which is a full blown desktop environment
- throwawayk7h 1y ago
  I attach screen + keyboard to it often. It has an official dock to facilitate this. In my mind, it's a device that can function as both desktop and hand-held.
- palata 1y ago
  > unless you hook a screen and keyboard to it, I suppose. You can run Steam Deck in "Desktop mode" without hooking a screen and keyboard to it, and it will be running a full Desktop Linux environment. If I plug a screen and keyboard to my Android, it's still a mobile OS (e.g. made to run with a touch screen). Samsung has apparently "dex" and Google is working on convergence as well, but this is not yet a thing. I'm looking forward to being able to hook a screen and keyboard to an Android phone and have it behave like a Desktop Android, though :-).
- whatevaa 1y ago
  It is very visible that Desktop mode is not primary function of Steam Deck, though. Some weird behavior here and there, reboot always goes into gaming mode and so on. It's a gaming handheld first, desktop second.
make3 1y ago
I guess the parent discussion is partly about whether the GNU/Linux desktop experience is getting popular, & if no one is using desktop mode in practice then this is not super informative, though good to know

by palata 1y ago

zozbot234 1y ago

Android systems don't even run the linux kernel in any real sense, pretty much every downstream kernel has millions of lines of patched code that will never make it upstream in their current form. Of course, that's no different from mostly any other "Linux" embedded device, but it's very different indeed from what's standard on desktop systems.

palata 1y ago
I would still count it as the Linux kernel. They don't change the syscall API, it's really mostly at the BSP level, right? Said differently: if manufacturers cared to mainstream their changes, they could. And we would all be better for it.
- fsflover 1y ago
  > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there.
  - MatthewPhillips 1y ago
    I think this really undervalues what Linux provides. The Android software is Linux software.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      It's completely incompatible, so in practice it's a different OS. Doesn't mean it's not valuable.
      - hagbard_c 1y ago
        Try Termux and you'll be surprised how much 'Linux' software runs fine on Android, this includes things made to run under X11 etc.
        fsflover 1y ago
        https://github.com/termux-play-store/ https://github.com/termux-play-store/
        jraph 1y ago
        What's your point? This mess is caused by Google policies, not technical considerations. You can still install Termux from F-Droid. We can argue about Android being a horrible OS for all sorts of reasons but that's a separate discussion.
        fsflover 1y ago
        Touché.
        jauntywundrkind 1y ago
        > Almost every Android version imposes new major restrictions when it comes to security requirements, and specifically the Android 10 version update was dramatic for Termux usage, as it disallowed executing downloaded files directly. > The Termux app avoided that by using a targetSdkVersion of Android 9, declaring that it was not compatible with the Android 10 requirements. Android level 9 is from Android 2 Gingerbread (2010!!). https://apilevels.com/ https://apilevels.com/ For now it's not a huge barrier to Termux running. We can go run Android 2 stuff today, & maybe Android will forever be backwards compatible. It does mean that Termux can't build a top or use any new Android features. Termux is glued to a truly ancient version of Android, because Android became inhospitable to basic Linux userland use cases. Seems its mostly about being unable to run downloaded code, which feels admittedly like very much "just a technicality", but boy oh boy has that technicality kept Android from expanding outside of its own bespoke userland.
  - palata 1y ago
    No software compiled for arm will run on x86. No software depending on Qt will run without Qt, even if you have GTK. Doesn't mean they don't run the same kernel, does it?
    - fsflover 1y ago
      You can recompile software for a different architecture relatively easily. You can't easily rewrite GNU/Linux software to run on Android.
      - palata 1y ago
        And you can't easily rewrite Qt software to use GTK. Still they both run on Linux.
        msgodel 1y ago
        You probably could if Android weren't intentionally constrained by Google to prevent it. That's what fsflover is trying to point out: Android is more of a television firmware than an OS and counting it like a PC OS makes very little sense because you can't use it like one. EDIT: I think you still don't understand. It doesn't matter what hardware Android runs on it's written to be appliance firmware. Even if you put it on a laptop it just turns the laptop into what is essentially a television.
        palata 1y ago
        So I was saying that Android runs the Linux kernel, period. But now that you say it, Android is very much a full OS. It's not a Linux Desktop, but it is a full OS. And televisions running Android are called "smart TVs", precisely because they run a full OS instead of a minimal firmware like they used to. Google is working on bringing Android to the Desktop, and Samsung already does it. As in: you plug your smartphone into a docking station and it is suddenly a Desktop computer.
  - assbuttbuttass 1y ago
    You can run Linux software on Android via termux, or the amazing UserLAnd app even lets you install an entire distro userland with several choices (Debian, Arch, etc)
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - MYEUHD 1y ago
    Checkout https://postmarketos.org https://postmarketos.org Those vendor provided kernel trees let you run a real Linux distribution on your phone.
    - zozbot234 1y ago
      PostmarketOS doesn't use downstream kernel trees because those are useless for anything that's not AOSP-based (unless you use terrible hacks like libhybris) and are often not upgradable to newer versions. They rely on "close-to-mainline" kernels that are much closer to real Linux.
      - MYEUHD 1y ago
        The community / testing devices use close to mainline kernels. But there are hundreds of devices in the downstream category. https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices#Downstream Sure, they're less usable than mainline devices, but it's possible to run linux with a vendor-provided old kernel.
  - jchw 1y ago
    That's not even true. You can use typical Linux software inside of a chroot, like with Termux.
    - conradev 1y ago
      Yep, and in the reverse, you don't need a separate kernel to run Android software on Linux: https://waydro.id https://waydro.id
      - udev4096 1y ago
        Waydroid is garbage. It's so bad. Better use redroid: https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc https://github.com/remote-android/redroid-doc
        fsflover 1y ago
        Waydroid actually allows me to run Android software on my GNU/Linux phone.
        return_to_monke 1y ago
        You failed to provide any reason why waydroid is "so bad".
    - longfingers 1y ago
      Whether your virtual container is lightweight, heavyweight or from the cloud doesn't really change anything from a regular user's perspective. You aren't installing software in the main environment you are looking at, running a desktop on, etc.
      - jchw 1y ago
        Recall the post above mine: > > I would still count it as the Linux kernel. > This may be technically true, except it has no single meaningful implication, like no Linux software works there. Termux is notable is because you in fact don't need a virtual machine at all, or even a proper container. Even the "chroot" aspect is basically just to create a facade to make software work with less effort; it's not literally needed. And you can indeed run typical graphical Linux software as long as you have a compatible display server; Termux offers an X server as an add-on. This doesn't mean that Android is the same as desktop Linux, but that's not the point here. The point is that Android runs the Linux kernel, and not just in name only. You actually can make use of the Linux aspect of Android, which many of us do. It's possible that Google will lock down Android further in the future and make the host Linux environment less usable for stock Linux apps, but today you can run quite a lot of typical CLI and even desktop Linux software directly in Android with minimal fuss. Even if it's a little cumbersome, it's quite useful in a pinch. I'd argue whether you can readily install software to the Linux host environment is also neither here nor there. For an immutable abroot setup like SteamOS, you can't really install directly to the host environment, but in my mind that does not make it any less "desktop Linux" or Linux kernel based.
  - udev4096 1y ago
    This is the reason I hate the recent surge in linux desktop users. People jumping in without allocating enough time to get familiar with the ecosystem
- Nevermark 1y ago
  Equating sub-desktop (based on typical use) Linux device instances, with desktop instances, would be similar to counting iOS, iPadOS and Vision OS instances with macOS instances. It would change the graph quite a bit to include all sub-desktop devices. Although that would also be an interesting comparison.
cherryteastain 1y ago
Android is Linux Android is not GNU/Linux. Article talks about GNU/Linux clearly. There is a point to the whole "I'd like to interject for a moment..." copypasta and Android's situation is the clearest illustration of it.
- jraph 1y ago
  > There is a point to the whole "I'd like to interject for a moment..." copypasta and Android's situation is the clearest illustration of it. Well… :-) With you in spirit, but to add to the mess, one could argue Alpine (and Postmarket OS) is a standard Linux distro, but non GNU. "GNU/" cannot be used for clarifying things anymore.
- throwaway0665 1y ago
  The article talks about browsers that use Linux in the user agent. This includes Alpine Linux - which is not GNU/Linux. It also splits out Chrome OS which is pretty much GNU/Linux.
  - blueflow 1y ago
    Alpine and GNU/Linux are Posix, while Android is not.
    - TheDong 1y ago
      I don't think Posix is very relevant to what is or isn't linux. macOS is more posix than NixOS, but everyone knows NixOS is a real linux distro, and macOS is not one.
      - blueflow 1y ago
        Me neither! I was suggesting to use "Posix" instead of "Linux" because it properly separates GNU/Linux or other Linuxes from Android. Posix is what Android isn't but what MacOS is. What people erroneously try to call "Linux" because they don't have a better word.
- 1y ago
charcircuit 1y ago
This has been repeated for so long that in the meantime enough of the changes have been upstreamed such that Android has been able to run with the upstream kernel since 6 years ago.

nerdjon 1y ago

Admittedly yeah SteamOS does walk that line, and I guess technically given that I think these numbers are based on browser data it would only be capturing the people that actually go into desktop mode (maybe?). But, I think there is a conversation around this to ask how many of the people using a Steam Deck actually go into desktop mode or care that it is Linux (or even understand that it is Linux) vs would switch to a Windows version if it worked as well.

palata 1y ago
Even in the "normal mode", I would argue that it is still Linux Desktop. A Linux Desktop init system, with a Linux Desktop userspace, with a Linux Desktop libc, with the Linux Desktop security model, a Linux Desktop package manager, a Linux Desktop compositor (it uses something based on Wayland, right?), etc. If you open a terminal (or SSH into it), you're on Linux. It's very, very different on Android. > how many of the people using a Steam Deck [...] care that it is Linux Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big.
- nerdjon 1y ago
  It is an interesting distinction, unlike Android I do admit that SteamOS is obviously contributing to Linux Desktop market share. I just think it is a complicated situation. From my understanding Xbox is running a version of Windows on their consoles (not talking about the new handhelds) tailor made for Xbox. But I would not call that adding to the Windows marketshare. iOS and iPadOS were started with versions of OSX and then modified (and clearly share some pieces) but we would not call either of those as contributing to Mac's marketshare. Obviously yes neither of those let you go into the traditional Mac or Windows desktop unlike SteamOS. But how the users perceive it is still important. > Probably most don't. But that's a goal. If corporate employees could use a Linux Desktop without caring that it is Linux, it would mean that the corporation can move to Linux, and that would be big. The problem is this works the other way also. If most users of the Steam Deck don't care or really know that it is Linux there is not much getting in the way of Microsoft coming in with their new handheld/OS and eating up that market if they can get the OS to perform as well. Put another way, if Valve decided (not saying they would, just asking a hypothetical) to either write their own OS or switch the underlying OS to Windows but kept the look of SteamOS as it behaved now and performance was the same. Would most users of the Steam Deck know or care? Personally I think for claims about the "linux desktop" to really matter, there has to be a conscious desire and care that it is Linux or it could disappear.

kube-system 1y ago

> The Steam Deck very much runs Linux Desktop. Android runs the Linux kernel, but everything else is different. Linux is a kernel.

palata 1y ago
Which is exactly why people here talk about "Linux Desktop". Linux is a kernel, Linux Desktop is some flavour of a full OS made to run on a PC, as opposed to e.g. embedded Linux or a Linux server. Not sure what your point is?
- tuna74 1y ago
  Yeah, but ChromeOS is just as much "Desktop Linux" as Fedora Workstation.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    I think that's pretty pedantic. When most people here say 'Linux Desktop', they mean the Linux kernel, GNU(-ish) userland, Wayland/X11, and some desktop like GNOME, KDE or Mate. Though, I guess outside tech circles, people will just talk about Linux as the whole desktop OS. E.g. our municipality was promoting installing a Linux distribution to save Windows laptops after the Windows 10 apocalypse, and they just call it Linux. Even Wikipedia says: Linux (/ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-uuks[15]) is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991, by Linus Torvalds.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      But with respect to "Linux on the Desktop" in the context of marketshare, the interest is in seeing how far Linux has gone, not how far software running on Linux has gone. The only reason "ChromeOS" isn't considered Linux in this dataset is because Chrome has a flag that removes Linux from the user-agent on certain systems. If we were talking about Linux on the desktop casually, or were compiling a dataset through some other means where the kernel is a known quantity, we'd most certainly include said systems.

paulcole 1y ago

If your belief is that Steam Deck is Linux Desktop then you need to count Switch/PS5/Xbox as desktops as well and take those into account with the OS percentages.

IsTom 1y ago
Steam Deck has (accessible in menu by default) desktop mode that is just KDE with desktop icons and everything.
- MostlyStable 1y ago
  I don't think his point was that it's not linux but rather that it's not a desktop, and if it counts as a desktop, then so do the rest of the gaming consoles runnining non-linux, which probably didn't get counted so the 5% would be lower.
  - westpfelia 1y ago
    Yea except I cant use my PS5 as a actual desktop. As in my steamdeck has a DE. My actual desktop is 4000 km away. So I have a monitor and mouse + KB plugged into my steamdeck Dock and its no different.
  - samrus 1y ago
    This is wrong. A steamdeck in desktop mode is exactly a desktop. You can write and execute code on it the exact same way you do on your laptop You cant do that on mobile devices or other handhelds
    - MostlyStable 1y ago
      Yes, you can, and yes, among the group of people represented on HN, I have no doubt that a fair number do use it this way.....but how typical is that? How often does the average steam deck owner use it as a desktop? How often does the average user leave the steam launcher? How often does the average user think of it as anything other than a gaming console? If all you care about is some very technical sense of "how many linux desktop environments are installed in the world", then none of these questions matter. But if the reason one is interested in the "Linux Desktop market share" is some level of interest in how people are using desktop computers, and when/if they are choosing them over competing OSs like Windows and MacOS, then these questions matter a lot. My guess is that 90% of SteamDeck owners don't think about the fact that it is Linux, barely every leave the steam launcher, and were they to be looking at getting a new desktop computer, their SteamDeck experience would not make them consider a linux distro vs. Windows or MacOS. In case it matters, I think more people should be running Linux than do, I think people over-estimate the difficulty of switching. I want the steam deck and SteamOS to be a gateway for people to switch in more contexts....I'm just skeptical that it's actually doing that more than a trivial amount.

scarface_74 1y ago

Market share only matters to geeks and commercial software vendors when deciding the total addressable market. A “Linux desktop” that is connected to a TV used to play games is not part of the market they care about.

jorvi 1y ago

You are being obtuse. 99% of Steam Deck users won't ever use the desktop mode except for maybe setting up emulation or Discord. In general, that makes Steam Deck users no more Linux users than people that use Android.

bigyabai 1y ago
Android users are Linux users. So are Nintendo Switch users, the whole "can Linux game/be used for mobile" question is already answered.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  Errr, isn’t the Switch BSD based? Or am I confusing it with the PS5?
  - dole 1y ago
    Switch’s network stack and some drivers are FreeBSD based, but that’s about it
- jorvi 1y ago
  They aren't. Or not in the sense that it matters for traditional Linux desktop users, which is pretty much the only reason the metric gets brought up. Following your logic, people using the old TiVo setop boxes were also Linux users. Active Linux desktop adoption rates matter because it means companies will put money into ensuring their product works well on it. 1Password or Telegram is not going to meaningfully care about Steam Deck users. Or Android users vis a vis the Linux desktop client, because Android can't readily run Linux GUI applications :) It's honestly kind of nuts no one here is getting that.
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    It really doesn't matter, you're again conflating the "kernel" and "desktop" distinction that's important here. It's like saying that XNU isn't being used by gamers - in practice you're correct, but the kernel is used to run millions of iPhone games. It doesn't matter for the adoption of macOS as a gaming platform, but the kernel is used for it. What matters, to me as a Linux user on the desktop, is that Nintendo and Google simply follow the license. I don't want them contributing patches to GNOME or Firefox, I want them downstream testing the kernel and contributing patches back for me to benefit from. And I do! My Switch Pro controller has official Linux support because of Nintendo. My day-to-day life on the desktop is improved by both company's contributions. The idea that Nintendo or Google are neglecting their duty because Photoshop doesn't run on Linux is a facetious argument. It might be a major issue for you, but clearly millions of Linux users are perfectly happy without those trappings. > Or Android users vis a vis the Linux desktop client, because Android can't readily run Linux GUI applications :) A travesty for Android's adoption metrics, one can only imagine. Thankfully for Linux users, the inverse is not so true: https://waydro.id/ https://waydro.id/

dartharva 1y ago

What even is "Linux Desktop" and why does Android not qualify as one? Many Android tablets (especially those with Samsung Dex) can certainly double up as desktops if its users were so willing, at least a lot more so than the Steam Deck.

DanOpcode 1y ago
Linux Desktop is something else. When Adobe considers if it's worth to port Photoshop to run on the Linux Desktop they don't include the market share of Android devices in that calculation. It's two completely different markets: desktop Linux apps and Android apps.
rstuart4133 1y ago
> What even is "Linux Desktop" and why does Android not qualify as one? A desktop is a computer that sits on your desk, as opposed to being held in your hand. In concrete terms, you can install Android Firefox on ChromeOS, and it runs fine. But it is near unusable because it turns out how people interact with desktops is very different to how people interact with phones. Also, desktop window managers tend to look like a protocol, rather than a library. That because every language can speak a protocol, but a library is written in one language and if you are lucky, someone many have provided bindings to that library to the language you are using. Android's display is effectively a Java library. If you want to talk to it from C or Python, you have to FFI to Java, which sucks from a number of perspectives. It's not how you would implement a general purpose desktop environment, and I've never met anyone who considers it to be one. That lack of flexibility shows up in a number of other ways. For example it's not difficult to implement an phone OS interface using XWindows or Wayland. Neither particularly care what window manager is running on top of them them. The reverse isn't true. You can't provide a the multi-window desktop environment on Android as it stands. None of this is true for ChromeOS. It uses Wayland under the hood, and so you can install and run Debian GUI apps on it. In fact I do that, and it mostly works as you would expect. Thus I consider ChromeOS to be true Linux Desktop environment, and it should be counted as one. It isn't mind you - but I think should be. Google seems to be in the process of replacing ChromeOS with Android, and as part of that process ChromeOS's ability to run Linux desktop apps is being ported to Android. If and when that happens, then I'd consider Android to be Linux desktop too.

Forgeties79 1y ago

Totally agree. It's what finally got me to commit to a linux machine for my recent desktop build!

koolala 1y ago

Typing this from my Steam Deck, its the best Linux desktop I've ever had. It's awesome to have my PC also be a handheld when laying in bed. I hope the Deckard has M+KB support too.

mcv 1y ago

The Steam Deck is absolutely a full blown Linux. But it's not a desktop. It's a handheld. Well, unless you hook a screen and keyboard to it, I suppose. No idea how many people do that. But if you do that, phones and tablets also become desktops.

anon7000 1y ago
I mean, a keyboard on iPad is way less powerful than a keyboard on steam deck. The steam deck can plug into a monitor and runs Plasma out of the box, which is a full blown desktop environment
throwawayk7h 1y ago
I attach screen + keyboard to it often. It has an official dock to facilitate this. In my mind, it's a device that can function as both desktop and hand-held.
palata 1y ago
> unless you hook a screen and keyboard to it, I suppose. You can run Steam Deck in "Desktop mode" without hooking a screen and keyboard to it, and it will be running a full Desktop Linux environment. If I plug a screen and keyboard to my Android, it's still a mobile OS (e.g. made to run with a touch screen). Samsung has apparently "dex" and Google is working on convergence as well, but this is not yet a thing. I'm looking forward to being able to hook a screen and keyboard to an Android phone and have it behave like a Desktop Android, though :-).
whatevaa 1y ago
It is very visible that Desktop mode is not primary function of Steam Deck, though. Some weird behavior here and there, reboot always goes into gaming mode and so on. It's a gaming handheld first, desktop second.

make3 1y ago

I guess the parent discussion is partly about whether the GNU/Linux desktop experience is getting popular, & if no one is using desktop mode in practice then this is not super informative, though good to know