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Except they aren’t sending them home, they’re cruelly sending them to unstable countries they aren’t from and putting their lives at risk. I wouldn’t call that

Except they aren’t sending them home, they’re cruelly sending them to unstable countries they aren’t from and putting their lives at risk. I wouldn’t call that justice. It’s closer to genocide than not. We can and should do better.

leereeves 1y ago
Wow, what horrible things must you think about Latin America to believe that sending people there is "putting their lives at risk". People are sent to third countries (with permission from that country) because they say they can't return to their own country. Why wouldn't they be safe in another Spanish speaking nation that agreed to accept them? Latin America isn't a death trap.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  Sending dissidents/LGBTQ people home to many South American countries is a death trap. Labeling them as criminals (without due process, I might add) also can be. They aren't sending immigrants back to each immigrant's preferred, safe country, as you insinuate; they're sending back to their country of origin.
  - leereeves 1y ago
    > Sending dissidents/LGBTQ people home to many South American countries is a death trap That's exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about. Same-sex marriage is legal in most (by population and area) of Latin America. Nations that haven't legalized that still have laws that ban anti-gay discrimination. English colonies like Jamaica and Guyana are worse. Many parts of the US are worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_the_Americas "Outside of the North Atlantic, no region in the world has undergone more progress in expanding LGBT legal rights than Latin America" "Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Latin American countries (SPLA) are unquestionably in the lead in the region. If one excludes non-SPLA countries, which are mostly small countries in the Caribbean, the record of progress is even more impressive." - LGBTQ+ Victory Institute https://victoryinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/LAC-LGBT-PoliticalRepresentation-Report.pdf https://victoryinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/LAC-...
    - willmarch 1y ago
      Respectfully, the notion that routing asylum-seekers (especially those who are LGBT or political dissidents) to “any” Latin-American country is harmless overlooks both geography and evidence. Under the Trump-era “Remain in Mexico,” Title 42 expulsions, and the Asylum-Cooperative Agreement with Guatemala, people were removed not to Argentina or Uruguay but overwhelmingly to northern Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador (countries with some of the highest homicide and kidnapping rates in the world). Human Rights Watch, Médecins Sans Frontières, and even the U.S. DHS Inspector General documented hundreds of rapes, assaults, disappearances and murders of migrants forced to wait or seek refuge there. International law calls this potential “refoulement”; it is precisely why UNHCR and multiple U.S. courts said the policies placed lives at risk. Citing marriage equality in Brazil or Chile does nothing to change the reality in the Northern Triangle, where same-sex marriage is illegal, hate-crime enforcement is weak, and impunity for anti-LGBT violence hovers around 80–90 percent. Honduras has recorded more than 470 LGBT murders since 2009; Guatemala’s congress tried in 2022 to criminalize sex education and explicitly ban gay marriage; El Salvador’s LGBT activists report routine police harassment and gang “social cleansing.” Saying “many parts of the U.S. are worse” ignores that federal law now protects LGBT workers nationwide and that homicide rates for LGBT people are a fraction of those in the receiving countries. In short, legal progress in parts of Latin America is real, but deporting vulnerable people to Guatemala, Honduras or Mexico is demonstrably dangerous and, for many, a potential death sentence.
      - leereeves 1y ago
        Respectfully, those statistics are outdated. El Salvador was once one of the most dangerous nations in the world, now it is one of the safest. Guatemala and Honduras haven't transformed quite so much, but their homicide rates have also decreased tremendously since 2009, when admittedly they were very dangerous with thousands of murders per year. So when you say "Honduras has recorded more than 470 LGBT murders since 2009", I would respond that you should seek updated information, and compare it against overall crime rates before concluding it is targetted at LGBT people. You're also concerned about rapes and other crimes against deportees. I would remind you of the hundreds of thousands of rapes committed against migrants trying to come to the USA. Removing the temptation that draws so many to endure such risks is the best thing we can do to reduce the crimes you mentioned.
- willmarch 1y ago
  South Sudan is in Latin America? "South Sudan descended into a civil war from 2013 to 2020, enduring rampant human rights abuses, including forced displacement, ethnic massacres, and killings of journalists by various parties."
  - leereeves 1y ago
    That's true, South Sudan is a terrible place to deport people. But the eight people who were deported there are terrible people. Most were murderers. One was convicted of sexually abusing a 12 year old. One was only convicted of robbery and assault, but South Sudan was his country of origin. “No country on Earth wanted to accept them because their crimes are so uniquely monstrous and barbaric,” said Tricia McLaughlin, a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security. https://apnews.com/article/deportees-south-sudan-ice-immigration-identities-eddd2d1a172775ec7d9403984ffb41e2 https://apnews.com/article/deportees-south-sudan-ice-immigra...
    - willmarch 1y ago
      However vile a person’s crimes, he doesn’t lose the basic rights that belong to every human being. Government can lock him up if the law allows, but it can’t knowingly dump him in a place where he’s almost certain to be tortured, starved, or killed. That crosses the Eighth-Amendment line against cruel and unusual punishment, ignores the court’s authority, and shifts our problems onto another country instead of taking responsibility for them ourselves. A republic built on natural rights and the rule of law simply doesn’t get to outsource suffering.
      - leereeves 1y ago
        > That crosses the Eighth-Amendment line against cruel and unusual punishment, ignores the court’s authority, and shifts our problems onto another country instead of taking responsibility for them ourselves. The Supreme Court approved the deportation 7-2. Edit: Nothing the Supreme Court does is strictly procedural. Unlike other courts, they have complete freedom to ignore precedent and procedure and rule (or refuse to hear the case) based on the outcome they desire, and they frequently do so.

leereeves 1y ago

Wow, what horrible things must you think about Latin America to believe that sending people there is "putting their lives at risk". People are sent to third countries (with permission from that country) because they say they can't return to their own country. Why wouldn't they be safe in another Spanish speaking nation that agreed to accept them? Latin America isn't a death trap.

IAmBroom 1y ago
Sending dissidents/LGBTQ people home to many South American countries is a death trap. Labeling them as criminals (without due process, I might add) also can be. They aren't sending immigrants back to each immigrant's preferred, safe country, as you insinuate; they're sending back to their country of origin.
- leereeves 1y ago
  > Sending dissidents/LGBTQ people home to many South American countries is a death trap That's exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about. Same-sex marriage is legal in most (by population and area) of Latin America. Nations that haven't legalized that still have laws that ban anti-gay discrimination. English colonies like Jamaica and Guyana are worse. Many parts of the US are worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_the_Americas "Outside of the North Atlantic, no region in the world has undergone more progress in expanding LGBT legal rights than Latin America" "Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Latin American countries (SPLA) are unquestionably in the lead in the region. If one excludes non-SPLA countries, which are mostly small countries in the Caribbean, the record of progress is even more impressive." - LGBTQ+ Victory Institute https://victoryinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/LAC-LGBT-PoliticalRepresentation-Report.pdf https://victoryinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/LAC-...
  - willmarch 1y ago
    Respectfully, the notion that routing asylum-seekers (especially those who are LGBT or political dissidents) to “any” Latin-American country is harmless overlooks both geography and evidence. Under the Trump-era “Remain in Mexico,” Title 42 expulsions, and the Asylum-Cooperative Agreement with Guatemala, people were removed not to Argentina or Uruguay but overwhelmingly to northern Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador (countries with some of the highest homicide and kidnapping rates in the world). Human Rights Watch, Médecins Sans Frontières, and even the U.S. DHS Inspector General documented hundreds of rapes, assaults, disappearances and murders of migrants forced to wait or seek refuge there. International law calls this potential “refoulement”; it is precisely why UNHCR and multiple U.S. courts said the policies placed lives at risk. Citing marriage equality in Brazil or Chile does nothing to change the reality in the Northern Triangle, where same-sex marriage is illegal, hate-crime enforcement is weak, and impunity for anti-LGBT violence hovers around 80–90 percent. Honduras has recorded more than 470 LGBT murders since 2009; Guatemala’s congress tried in 2022 to criminalize sex education and explicitly ban gay marriage; El Salvador’s LGBT activists report routine police harassment and gang “social cleansing.” Saying “many parts of the U.S. are worse” ignores that federal law now protects LGBT workers nationwide and that homicide rates for LGBT people are a fraction of those in the receiving countries. In short, legal progress in parts of Latin America is real, but deporting vulnerable people to Guatemala, Honduras or Mexico is demonstrably dangerous and, for many, a potential death sentence.
    - leereeves 1y ago
      Respectfully, those statistics are outdated. El Salvador was once one of the most dangerous nations in the world, now it is one of the safest. Guatemala and Honduras haven't transformed quite so much, but their homicide rates have also decreased tremendously since 2009, when admittedly they were very dangerous with thousands of murders per year. So when you say "Honduras has recorded more than 470 LGBT murders since 2009", I would respond that you should seek updated information, and compare it against overall crime rates before concluding it is targetted at LGBT people. You're also concerned about rapes and other crimes against deportees. I would remind you of the hundreds of thousands of rapes committed against migrants trying to come to the USA. Removing the temptation that draws so many to endure such risks is the best thing we can do to reduce the crimes you mentioned.
willmarch 1y ago
South Sudan is in Latin America? "South Sudan descended into a civil war from 2013 to 2020, enduring rampant human rights abuses, including forced displacement, ethnic massacres, and killings of journalists by various parties."
- leereeves 1y ago
  That's true, South Sudan is a terrible place to deport people. But the eight people who were deported there are terrible people. Most were murderers. One was convicted of sexually abusing a 12 year old. One was only convicted of robbery and assault, but South Sudan was his country of origin. “No country on Earth wanted to accept them because their crimes are so uniquely monstrous and barbaric,” said Tricia McLaughlin, a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security. https://apnews.com/article/deportees-south-sudan-ice-immigration-identities-eddd2d1a172775ec7d9403984ffb41e2 https://apnews.com/article/deportees-south-sudan-ice-immigra...
  - willmarch 1y ago
    However vile a person’s crimes, he doesn’t lose the basic rights that belong to every human being. Government can lock him up if the law allows, but it can’t knowingly dump him in a place where he’s almost certain to be tortured, starved, or killed. That crosses the Eighth-Amendment line against cruel and unusual punishment, ignores the court’s authority, and shifts our problems onto another country instead of taking responsibility for them ourselves. A republic built on natural rights and the rule of law simply doesn’t get to outsource suffering.
    - leereeves 1y ago
      > That crosses the Eighth-Amendment line against cruel and unusual punishment, ignores the court’s authority, and shifts our problems onto another country instead of taking responsibility for them ourselves. The Supreme Court approved the deportation 7-2. Edit: Nothing the Supreme Court does is strictly procedural. Unlike other courts, they have complete freedom to ignore precedent and procedure and rule (or refuse to hear the case) based on the outcome they desire, and they frequently do so.