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I've always wondered why The Matrix isn't talked about more as cyberpunk. It ticks all the boxes: dystopia, hackers, virtual worlds, machines in control. Also,

by pyman 1y ago

I've always wondered why The Matrix isn't talked about more as cyberpunk. It ticks all the boxes: dystopia, hackers, virtual worlds, machines in control. Also, speaking of The Matrix, I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious. Trained inside the system, starts questioning it, breaks free, and rewrites the rules. What I find interesting is that AI didn't even exist 25 years ago, and AI agents (Agent Smith) weren't even on the radar. And yet, the writers used simple analogies to explain it very well.

rotexo 1y ago
I’ve always felt that the Matrix lacks the sort of social commentary I associate with cyberpunk. Sure, it has virtual reality, but it’s more a messianic power fantasy than an unflinching look at the human condition. Strange Days struck me as a more authentically cyberpunk artifact. Just my two cents.
- alganet 1y ago
  You're right, there is no novelty (despite the attempt) in social commentary there. But they give you a spoon (for you to make one yourself). I think the one that took off as the main interpretation is definitely not what the Watchowski brothers intended (but they had to go with it). It's definitely no more messianic than other countless movies, it just wears a more messianic cloth.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    *Wachowski sisters :)
    - alganet 1y ago
      You're missing the point, but I'll entertain your misdirection for a while. The Wachowski sisters never released a Matrix movie. One of them gave up completely, the other one also almost gave up and ended up writing just a part of it. I'm talking about Matrix Ressurrections, obviously. Of course, none of it matters, but you're being pedantic, so, here's the pedantic response.
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        When someone changes their name and gender identity it’s basic courtesy to use their new name and pronouns. Yes they identified as the wachowski brothers when The Matrix (1999) was released - but they have changed and that name no longer applies to them. This is the same way you would call King Charles by that name not Prince Charles, even when describing events that happened when he was a prince. I genuinely wasn’t trying to be pedantic, just offering a helpful correction because I assumed you were using “brothers” because you didn’t know. I hoped the “:)” would convey the good intent. Anyway, now we’re here so i’ll just say - your pedantry is incorrect, which is the worst kind of pedantry.
        alganet 1y ago
        OK. Whatever this fight is, is not my fight (I have no fight, no need for one). Do you have anything to add regarding the contents of the movie? Now it would be a good time to speak up, demonstrating that you were not just trying to interrupt me or distract me in any way.
        kennywinker 1y ago
        My comment was two words. Not meant to “interrupt” or “distract” - idk how one could even interrupt in a comment thread - I posted 7 hours after you, were you mid-sentence?? Like I said, I just meant to gently correct your misgendering and misspelling. Two words. So relax, maybe consider learning to take criticism a little better? I haven’t added anything about the matrix movies because I think you’re quite far off, and you’ve reacted to pushback terribly. But, I’ll give you a direct response to your point if you’d like? imo the social commentary in the matrix is present and abundant, it’s just aimed at a higher (lower?) level than the kind of “corporations are corrupt” or “ads are bad” social commentary that’s easiest to name as social commentary. It’s about questioning the fabric of your personal reality: your job, your home, your government, your gender, your name. The idea is that these things are a shared illusion, and can be a cage if we let them. Some of that is a cage imposed by ourselves (“I am a software developer”), some of that is a cage imposed by others (“the wachowski brothers”). If that isn’t social commentary, idk what is. But I didn’t respond to your message because I disagreed with you - i responded because “someone is wrong on the internet” (https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/)
alganet 1y ago
> I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious You clearly haven't seen Animatrix then. This option is explored in one of the episodes. In my opinion, cinematically speaking, Neo is male Nova (from Planet of the Apes), old trope, non-AI dependant, recycled. This perspective also explains a lot of cultural ramifications Matrix took in the real world. Deep down, it's just a fish-out-of-water trope with a twist (the fisher hooks him, cast as Lawrence Fishburne). > AI agents (Agent Smith) That's hilarious! That's really what you think of AI agents?
- pyman 1y ago
  Well, Agent Smith has intelligence, a purpose, and a clear goal. He seems to be in contact with someone (or something) which suggests there's some kind of orchestration behind the scenes. Let's put it this way: if Agent Smith were real, he'd be working for Agentforce right now :)
  - alganet 1y ago
    Agent Smith is 1/3 of Trinity. C'mon, that's right in the face. In the flanking symbolism (three figures, a central one flanked by two others), Trinity represents the flanking formation itself. Agent Smith represents one of the flanking figures that disconnects from the main formation. He's basically Furiosa. Similar flanking trios are seen in Star Wars (Han, Leia, Luke), Starship Troopers (Rico, Carmen, Carl). Somehow, it also alludes to the popular trope of "protagonist, girlfriend, best friend" seen in many popular movies, and dissected in The Truman Show. This has nothing to do with AI agents. Some of those ideas go back millenia in the past. I think the writers were high as fuck and thought that we computer people see this as "the operating system of society" or something (because they're full of bullshit just like that).
    - pyman 1y ago
      Looks like someone needs to update Wikipedia :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Smith > Smith began as an Agent, an AI program in the Matrix programmed to keep order within the system by terminating human simulacra that would bring instability to the simulated reality, as well as any rogue programs that no longer serve a purpose to the Machine collective.
fracus 1y ago
Lack of any neon lights?
- hcs 1y ago
  Mostly, but there's Heart O' The City Hotel
jonjacky 1y ago
> AI didn't even exist 25 years ago Er, the term "AI" was coined almost 70 years ago, in 1956. By the mid-1960s AI was in full career, with ChatBots (Eliza and its variants), neural nets (Perceptrons etc.), and many applications including chess playing programs, etc. Science fiction writers and other authors were well aware of all this - it got lots of coverage in the popular press. There was a huge, huge AI boom from the late 1970s to the late 1980s, mostly based around the technology of rule-based expert systems. Venture capital flowed copiously -- lots of startups made a big splash -- some lasted several years -- Intellicorp, Symbolics, etc. -- but now they're all gone. Money also flowed from big government programs: The Fifth Generation in Japan, Strategic Computing in the US. It all collapsed in the AI winter that started in the late 1980s. The Cyberpunk genre began during the 1980s AI boom. I recall Neuromancer appeared in 1984, at its very peak. Do people really not remember any of this? I'm an old guy, but it wasn't that long ago. Isn't there any institutional or community memory in computing? The 1980s AI boom was huge -- in its time it was similar to the excitement around LLMs now. I can't forget that it all disappeared without a trace, as I observe the current wave.
- alganet 1y ago
  You're practically asking someone to bring Golems, Metropolis, Frankenstein. Media portrayal of AI is still to this day closer to that than to how programmers actually think. It's kind of silly. The truth is, it doesn't matter. The history is merely a curiosity, and at this point, it's a distraction.
msh 1y ago
I would personally say the matrix is not cyberpunk as its not really a cyberpunk world. The matrix world is a late 1990'ties world and the "realworld" is a post apocalyptic dystopia.
JadeNB 1y ago
> Also, speaking of The Matrix, I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious. Trained inside the system, starts questioning it, breaks free, and rewrites the rules. This seems more like a description of Agent Smith, whom you mention later, and who, I seem to remember, is described more or less explicitly in those terms, as a machine agent that has become self aware. Whereas Neo was already a human with pre-existing consciousness, and non-artificial intelligence, so that his journey seems more about man freeing himself from the machine.

by pyman 1y ago

rotexo 1y ago

I’ve always felt that the Matrix lacks the sort of social commentary I associate with cyberpunk. Sure, it has virtual reality, but it’s more a messianic power fantasy than an unflinching look at the human condition. Strange Days struck me as a more authentically cyberpunk artifact. Just my two cents.

alganet 1y ago
You're right, there is no novelty (despite the attempt) in social commentary there. But they give you a spoon (for you to make one yourself). I think the one that took off as the main interpretation is definitely not what the Watchowski brothers intended (but they had to go with it). It's definitely no more messianic than other countless movies, it just wears a more messianic cloth.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  *Wachowski sisters :)
  - alganet 1y ago
    You're missing the point, but I'll entertain your misdirection for a while. The Wachowski sisters never released a Matrix movie. One of them gave up completely, the other one also almost gave up and ended up writing just a part of it. I'm talking about Matrix Ressurrections, obviously. Of course, none of it matters, but you're being pedantic, so, here's the pedantic response.
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      When someone changes their name and gender identity it’s basic courtesy to use their new name and pronouns. Yes they identified as the wachowski brothers when The Matrix (1999) was released - but they have changed and that name no longer applies to them. This is the same way you would call King Charles by that name not Prince Charles, even when describing events that happened when he was a prince. I genuinely wasn’t trying to be pedantic, just offering a helpful correction because I assumed you were using “brothers” because you didn’t know. I hoped the “:)” would convey the good intent. Anyway, now we’re here so i’ll just say - your pedantry is incorrect, which is the worst kind of pedantry.
      - alganet 1y ago
        OK. Whatever this fight is, is not my fight (I have no fight, no need for one). Do you have anything to add regarding the contents of the movie? Now it would be a good time to speak up, demonstrating that you were not just trying to interrupt me or distract me in any way.
        kennywinker 1y ago
        My comment was two words. Not meant to “interrupt” or “distract” - idk how one could even interrupt in a comment thread - I posted 7 hours after you, were you mid-sentence?? Like I said, I just meant to gently correct your misgendering and misspelling. Two words. So relax, maybe consider learning to take criticism a little better? I haven’t added anything about the matrix movies because I think you’re quite far off, and you’ve reacted to pushback terribly. But, I’ll give you a direct response to your point if you’d like? imo the social commentary in the matrix is present and abundant, it’s just aimed at a higher (lower?) level than the kind of “corporations are corrupt” or “ads are bad” social commentary that’s easiest to name as social commentary. It’s about questioning the fabric of your personal reality: your job, your home, your government, your gender, your name. The idea is that these things are a shared illusion, and can be a cage if we let them. Some of that is a cage imposed by ourselves (“I am a software developer”), some of that is a cage imposed by others (“the wachowski brothers”). If that isn’t social commentary, idk what is. But I didn’t respond to your message because I disagreed with you - i responded because “someone is wrong on the internet” (https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/)

alganet 1y ago

> I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious You clearly haven't seen Animatrix then. This option is explored in one of the episodes. In my opinion, cinematically speaking, Neo is male Nova (from Planet of the Apes), old trope, non-AI dependant, recycled. This perspective also explains a lot of cultural ramifications Matrix took in the real world. Deep down, it's just a fish-out-of-water trope with a twist (the fisher hooks him, cast as Lawrence Fishburne). > AI agents (Agent Smith) That's hilarious! That's really what you think of AI agents?

pyman 1y ago
Well, Agent Smith has intelligence, a purpose, and a clear goal. He seems to be in contact with someone (or something) which suggests there's some kind of orchestration behind the scenes. Let's put it this way: if Agent Smith were real, he'd be working for Agentforce right now :)
- alganet 1y ago
  Agent Smith is 1/3 of Trinity. C'mon, that's right in the face. In the flanking symbolism (three figures, a central one flanked by two others), Trinity represents the flanking formation itself. Agent Smith represents one of the flanking figures that disconnects from the main formation. He's basically Furiosa. Similar flanking trios are seen in Star Wars (Han, Leia, Luke), Starship Troopers (Rico, Carmen, Carl). Somehow, it also alludes to the popular trope of "protagonist, girlfriend, best friend" seen in many popular movies, and dissected in The Truman Show. This has nothing to do with AI agents. Some of those ideas go back millenia in the past. I think the writers were high as fuck and thought that we computer people see this as "the operating system of society" or something (because they're full of bullshit just like that).
  - pyman 1y ago
    Looks like someone needs to update Wikipedia :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Smith > Smith began as an Agent, an AI program in the Matrix programmed to keep order within the system by terminating human simulacra that would bring instability to the simulated reality, as well as any rogue programs that no longer serve a purpose to the Machine collective.

fracus 1y ago

Lack of any neon lights?

hcs 1y ago
Mostly, but there's Heart O' The City Hotel

jonjacky 1y ago

> AI didn't even exist 25 years ago Er, the term "AI" was coined almost 70 years ago, in 1956. By the mid-1960s AI was in full career, with ChatBots (Eliza and its variants), neural nets (Perceptrons etc.), and many applications including chess playing programs, etc. Science fiction writers and other authors were well aware of all this - it got lots of coverage in the popular press. There was a huge, huge AI boom from the late 1970s to the late 1980s, mostly based around the technology of rule-based expert systems. Venture capital flowed copiously -- lots of startups made a big splash -- some lasted several years -- Intellicorp, Symbolics, etc. -- but now they're all gone. Money also flowed from big government programs: The Fifth Generation in Japan, Strategic Computing in the US. It all collapsed in the AI winter that started in the late 1980s. The Cyberpunk genre began during the 1980s AI boom. I recall Neuromancer appeared in 1984, at its very peak. Do people really not remember any of this? I'm an old guy, but it wasn't that long ago. Isn't there any institutional or community memory in computing? The 1980s AI boom was huge -- in its time it was similar to the excitement around LLMs now. I can't forget that it all disappeared without a trace, as I observe the current wave.

alganet 1y ago
You're practically asking someone to bring Golems, Metropolis, Frankenstein. Media portrayal of AI is still to this day closer to that than to how programmers actually think. It's kind of silly. The truth is, it doesn't matter. The history is merely a curiosity, and at this point, it's a distraction.

msh 1y ago

I would personally say the matrix is not cyberpunk as its not really a cyberpunk world. The matrix world is a late 1990'ties world and the "realworld" is a post apocalyptic dystopia.

JadeNB 1y ago

> Also, speaking of The Matrix, I just realised Neo is the perfect analogy for AI becoming conscious. Trained inside the system, starts questioning it, breaks free, and rewrites the rules. This seems more like a description of Agent Smith, whom you mention later, and who, I seem to remember, is described more or less explicitly in those terms, as a machine agent that has become self aware. Whereas Neo was already a human with pre-existing consciousness, and non-artificial intelligence, so that his journey seems more about man freeing himself from the machine.