4 ms·

You can create an ID card system that reliably verifies some sort of personal attribute (such as age) without revealing other personal information or a validati

You can create an ID card system that reliably verifies some sort of personal attribute (such as age) without revealing other personal information or a validation request being sent to the government which shares what sites you may or may not have been browsing

pjc50 1y ago
I think the point is that "can" is not the same as "will".
- perching_aix 1y ago
  Because only people who are engaging in cynicism can predict the future.
  - secstate 1y ago
    Cynicism wins the day because negative outcomes are easier to plan for than positive outcomes. Humans defaulting to optimistic outcomes of the future often end up littering the ground with externalities that they failed to consider. And we also only have a single model for infinite growth (cancer) that always leads to destruction, so relentless optimism as a biological organism means a need for infinite growth, which we only know to be a path to destruction. The answer, therefore, is not bitching on the internet about all the wet blankets who only see negative outcomes, but acknowledging that everything we know needs to end eventually including ourselves, and balancing optimism for the short term with cynicism for the long term. And thus discovering that a healthy cynicism for the future predictions is probably appropriate, unless you truly want to live forever and have infinite energy for everything. But that's a god.
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      Easier to plan for is an interesting lens to look through, can't immediately discard it for sure. From my perspective, negative expectations do have a higher chance of turning out real, but because negative expectations most often are just code for human misalignment. We have some philosophical, instinctual, or aesthetic (etc.) preferences, but then reality is always going to be broader than that. So you're bound to hit things that are in misalignment. It takes active effort to cultivate the world to be whatever particular way. But this is also why I find simple pleas to cynicism particularly hollow. It comes off as resignation, exactly where the opposite is what would be most required.
      - secstate 1y ago
        That's a fair counter argument, and I do genuinely believe (not know) that everyone needs a balance of cynicism and optimism to function optimally as a human. I also believe the resignation you feel from cynicism is rampant exactly because as humans we've become very good at basic survival and beyond that it's not totally clear what our targets for living should be. Certainly we can all agree that trying to harness ever more energy and growing forever can't be the target. But that's all we've done for two millennia now. How to we avoid becoming a cancer to our planet (or any other environment we find ourselves in)?
  - ajsnigrutin 1y ago
    Some of us learn from experience and make predictions based on past actions by the governments.
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      Trauma sufferers also just learned from experience.
  - exe34 1y ago
    The rich and powerful have always worked very hard to keep their position. They have vastly more resources than the rest of us to throw at the problem. It's not cynicism to predict that every tool will be used to make our lives worse unless it helps them get richer and more powerful.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    Making things secure and private is hard. There's a lot of hoops to jump through. Naive implementations are easy and cheap. And, if these tools and their entire software tree is not open-source, we cannot verify it's security. We just have to trust that the developers are good at what they're doing. When every company under the sun has had multiple data breeches, I'm not too keen to do that. Open-source the entire stack, show me a few white papers proving it's cryptographically sound, then I'll consider it. Until then, we should do with these tools what they deserve: being shoved up the government's ass.
johnisgood 1y ago
These are possible, there are zero-knowledge proof (ZKP) algorithms and whatnot, but it is not going to happen.
Aloisius 1y ago
First, while there's research on the math for things like ZNP, there is a shocking lack of research on security vulnerabilities for the actual implementations of such age verification systems which should make anyone using them extremely nervous. Second, if a porn website, social media, video game or whatever other thing regulators want to discourage people visiting kicks you off into an age verification takes requires you to some system/site, even an independent one, that requires you upload your ID, a fair number of people will simply refuse simply due to lack of understanding in how it works and trust that it actually is anonymous. Third, every implementation I've seen doesn't work for some/all non-citizens/tourists. And finally and more importantly, the ease at bypassing those systems means it's unlikely to stop anyone underage and ultimately is no better than existing parental control software, so all one is doing is restricting speech for adults.
- hellojesus 1y ago
  I, for one, would publically publish my credentials so that others could use them.
jlokier 1y ago
To the surprise of many, Google recently announced it is already integrating ZK-proof-of-age into Google Wallet with those kinds of properties, open sourcing the underlying libraries, and working with governments to encourage their ZKP system's adoption for exactly this sort of problem. - [2025-04-29] https://blog.google/products/google-pay/google-wallet-age-identity-verifications/ https://blog.google/products/google-pay/google-wallet-age-id... - [2025-07-03] https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/opening-up-zero-knowledge-proof-technology-to-promote-privacy-in-age-assurance/ https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/opening-up-ze... - [2025-06-11] https://zeroknowledge.fm/podcast/363/ https://zeroknowledge.fm/podcast/363/

pjc50 1y ago

I think the point is that "can" is not the same as "will".

perching_aix 1y ago
Because only people who are engaging in cynicism can predict the future.
- secstate 1y ago
  Cynicism wins the day because negative outcomes are easier to plan for than positive outcomes. Humans defaulting to optimistic outcomes of the future often end up littering the ground with externalities that they failed to consider. And we also only have a single model for infinite growth (cancer) that always leads to destruction, so relentless optimism as a biological organism means a need for infinite growth, which we only know to be a path to destruction. The answer, therefore, is not bitching on the internet about all the wet blankets who only see negative outcomes, but acknowledging that everything we know needs to end eventually including ourselves, and balancing optimism for the short term with cynicism for the long term. And thus discovering that a healthy cynicism for the future predictions is probably appropriate, unless you truly want to live forever and have infinite energy for everything. But that's a god.
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    Easier to plan for is an interesting lens to look through, can't immediately discard it for sure. From my perspective, negative expectations do have a higher chance of turning out real, but because negative expectations most often are just code for human misalignment. We have some philosophical, instinctual, or aesthetic (etc.) preferences, but then reality is always going to be broader than that. So you're bound to hit things that are in misalignment. It takes active effort to cultivate the world to be whatever particular way. But this is also why I find simple pleas to cynicism particularly hollow. It comes off as resignation, exactly where the opposite is what would be most required.
    - secstate 1y ago
      That's a fair counter argument, and I do genuinely believe (not know) that everyone needs a balance of cynicism and optimism to function optimally as a human. I also believe the resignation you feel from cynicism is rampant exactly because as humans we've become very good at basic survival and beyond that it's not totally clear what our targets for living should be. Certainly we can all agree that trying to harness ever more energy and growing forever can't be the target. But that's all we've done for two millennia now. How to we avoid becoming a cancer to our planet (or any other environment we find ourselves in)?
- ajsnigrutin 1y ago
  Some of us learn from experience and make predictions based on past actions by the governments.
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    Trauma sufferers also just learned from experience.
- exe34 1y ago
  The rich and powerful have always worked very hard to keep their position. They have vastly more resources than the rest of us to throw at the problem. It's not cynicism to predict that every tool will be used to make our lives worse unless it helps them get richer and more powerful.
- const_cast 1y ago
  Making things secure and private is hard. There's a lot of hoops to jump through. Naive implementations are easy and cheap. And, if these tools and their entire software tree is not open-source, we cannot verify it's security. We just have to trust that the developers are good at what they're doing. When every company under the sun has had multiple data breeches, I'm not too keen to do that. Open-source the entire stack, show me a few white papers proving it's cryptographically sound, then I'll consider it. Until then, we should do with these tools what they deserve: being shoved up the government's ass.

johnisgood 1y ago

These are possible, there are zero-knowledge proof (ZKP) algorithms and whatnot, but it is not going to happen.

Aloisius 1y ago

First, while there's research on the math for things like ZNP, there is a shocking lack of research on security vulnerabilities for the actual implementations of such age verification systems which should make anyone using them extremely nervous. Second, if a porn website, social media, video game or whatever other thing regulators want to discourage people visiting kicks you off into an age verification takes requires you to some system/site, even an independent one, that requires you upload your ID, a fair number of people will simply refuse simply due to lack of understanding in how it works and trust that it actually is anonymous. Third, every implementation I've seen doesn't work for some/all non-citizens/tourists. And finally and more importantly, the ease at bypassing those systems means it's unlikely to stop anyone underage and ultimately is no better than existing parental control software, so all one is doing is restricting speech for adults.

hellojesus 1y ago
I, for one, would publically publish my credentials so that others could use them.

jlokier 1y ago

To the surprise of many, Google recently announced it is already integrating ZK-proof-of-age into Google Wallet with those kinds of properties, open sourcing the underlying libraries, and working with governments to encourage their ZKP system's adoption for exactly this sort of problem. - [2025-04-29] https://blog.google/products/google-pay/google-wallet-age-identity-verifications/ https://blog.google/products/google-pay/google-wallet-age-id... - [2025-07-03] https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/opening-up-zero-knowledge-proof-technology-to-promote-privacy-in-age-assurance/ https://blog.google/technology/safety-security/opening-up-ze... - [2025-06-11] https://zeroknowledge.fm/podcast/363/ https://zeroknowledge.fm/podcast/363/