4 ms·

oh good, and your authoritarian government can know you're in the closet and trying to figure out how to leave the country, too! no, fuck this idea so hard. if

oh good, and your authoritarian government can know you're in the closet and trying to figure out how to leave the country, too! no, fuck this idea so hard. if this is inevitable, our duty is to build technology that defeats it

gjsman-1000 1y ago
Local ID Proofs =/= Surveillance
- dingnuts 1y ago
  it absolutely will mean surveillance, unless you were born yesterday. governments will implement what you're describing in a way that is not privacy preserving this is supposed to be HACKER news, not fucking bootlicker news
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think the internet is covered in ads, 25% Cloudflare, infested with CAPTCHAs and IP blocking, and the problem gets worse every year? There are real problems that haven't been fixed; the driver's license concept correctly implemented might be better than continuing down this path. I view it as we can make a good standard; or let a bad standard be dictated.
    - dingnuts 1y ago
      > Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think Obviously. Why do YOU think I'm angry-posting about it on the orange shithole site with the username "dingnuts" ?
    - ipaddr 1y ago
      The drivers license id doesn't solve anything but adds a layer of nonsense on top. That doesn't stop cloudflares marketshare takeover. It doesn't stop CAPTCHA which will filter out bots using these ids. It provides an easy method for hackers to use. It filters out the curious kids. In the end it solves nothing and creates more problems.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      Most ads that I see these days are from Big Tech megacorps. Do you seriously think that having a "driver license for the Internet" would mean that the likes of Google and Meta would stop?
    - hombre_fatal 1y ago
      Those are trivial problems compared to an internet linked to your identity. Clicking through some captchas and installing an adblocker just isn't the hard life you're trying to claim it is.
    - immibis 1y ago
      At least in the current system, there are some websites where you don't have to prove your real identity. Hacker News, for example. In an internet driver's license system, remember that your computer would have to be locked down, and only able to access government-approved websites using government-approved clients - something like they have in China, or like using an iPhone but worse. Once the ability for any site to verify your identity was set up, all sites would have to verify your identity, or lose their own verification, under one of many standard excuses like protecting the children.
  - sophacles 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - ipaddr 1y ago
      The level of discourse has drop here. Someone steals your id creds and uses them as you is the simplest. The methods will range from stealing ids to breaking into auth servers to mitm attacks or fake ids and rogue auth servers. Everything works so well with video game protection methods now.. no one will be able to crack anything?
    - int_19h 1y ago
      The recipes and tools for bypassing these kinds of blocks (and far worse ones as well - compared to what Russia and China are doing, this is child play) are one search away. The only thing necessary is the desire to actually do it.
derektank 1y ago
You can create an ID card system that reliably verifies some sort of personal attribute (such as age) without revealing other personal information or a validation request being sent to the government which shares what sites you may or may not have been browsing
- pjc50 1y ago
  I think the point is that "can" is not the same as "will".
  - perching_aix 1y ago
    Because only people who are engaging in cynicism can predict the future.
    - secstate 1y ago
      Cynicism wins the day because negative outcomes are easier to plan for than positive outcomes. Humans defaulting to optimistic outcomes of the future often end up littering the ground with externalities that they failed to consider. And we also only have a single model for infinite growth (cancer) that always leads to destruction, so relentless optimism as a biological organism means a need for infinite growth, which we only know to be a path to destruction. The answer, therefore, is not bitching on the internet about all the wet blankets who only see negative outcomes, but acknowledging that everything we know needs to end eventually including ourselves, and balancing optimism for the short term with cynicism for the long term. And thus discovering that a healthy cynicism for the future predictions is probably appropriate, unless you truly want to live forever and have infinite energy for everything. But that's a god.
      - perching_aix 1y ago
        Easier to plan for is an interesting lens to look through, can't immediately discard it for sure. From my perspective, negative expectations do have a higher chance of turning out real, but because negative expectations most often are just code for human misalignment. We have some philosophical, instinctual, or aesthetic (etc.) preferences, but then reality is always going to be broader than that. So you're bound to hit things that are in misalignment. It takes active effort to cultivate the world to be whatever particular way. But this is also why I find simple pleas to cynicism particularly hollow. It comes off as resignation, exactly where the opposite is what would be most required.
GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
the number of people who work for (or defend those who work for) firms like raytheon, northrop grumman, palantir, meta, amazon, microsoft, alphabet, flock et al leads me to believe there are not enough people left to care about building this technology. we're cooked. too many developers lack the moral position necessary to turn the tide in a meaningfully widespread way - at best, it's "if not me, someone else will do this work anyways, so i might as well be the one collecting the paycheck/stock options." at worst, it's "i think it's a good thing to create tools to surveil/manipulate/kill people." mourn the loss of the internet we knew and be ready to sacrifice ease of use to return to lower-tech/still-underground options.

gjsman-1000 1y ago

Local ID Proofs =/= Surveillance

dingnuts 1y ago
it absolutely will mean surveillance, unless you were born yesterday. governments will implement what you're describing in a way that is not privacy preserving this is supposed to be HACKER news, not fucking bootlicker news
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think the internet is covered in ads, 25% Cloudflare, infested with CAPTCHAs and IP blocking, and the problem gets worse every year? There are real problems that haven't been fixed; the driver's license concept correctly implemented might be better than continuing down this path. I view it as we can make a good standard; or let a bad standard be dictated.
  - dingnuts 1y ago
    > Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think Obviously. Why do YOU think I'm angry-posting about it on the orange shithole site with the username "dingnuts" ?
  - ipaddr 1y ago
    The drivers license id doesn't solve anything but adds a layer of nonsense on top. That doesn't stop cloudflares marketshare takeover. It doesn't stop CAPTCHA which will filter out bots using these ids. It provides an easy method for hackers to use. It filters out the curious kids. In the end it solves nothing and creates more problems.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Most ads that I see these days are from Big Tech megacorps. Do you seriously think that having a "driver license for the Internet" would mean that the likes of Google and Meta would stop?
  - hombre_fatal 1y ago
    Those are trivial problems compared to an internet linked to your identity. Clicking through some captchas and installing an adblocker just isn't the hard life you're trying to claim it is.
  - immibis 1y ago
    At least in the current system, there are some websites where you don't have to prove your real identity. Hacker News, for example. In an internet driver's license system, remember that your computer would have to be locked down, and only able to access government-approved websites using government-approved clients - something like they have in China, or like using an iPhone but worse. Once the ability for any site to verify your identity was set up, all sites would have to verify your identity, or lose their own verification, under one of many standard excuses like protecting the children.
- sophacles 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ipaddr 1y ago
    The level of discourse has drop here. Someone steals your id creds and uses them as you is the simplest. The methods will range from stealing ids to breaking into auth servers to mitm attacks or fake ids and rogue auth servers. Everything works so well with video game protection methods now.. no one will be able to crack anything?
  - int_19h 1y ago
    The recipes and tools for bypassing these kinds of blocks (and far worse ones as well - compared to what Russia and China are doing, this is child play) are one search away. The only thing necessary is the desire to actually do it.

derektank 1y ago

You can create an ID card system that reliably verifies some sort of personal attribute (such as age) without revealing other personal information or a validation request being sent to the government which shares what sites you may or may not have been browsing

pjc50 1y ago
I think the point is that "can" is not the same as "will".
- perching_aix 1y ago
  Because only people who are engaging in cynicism can predict the future.
  - secstate 1y ago
    Cynicism wins the day because negative outcomes are easier to plan for than positive outcomes. Humans defaulting to optimistic outcomes of the future often end up littering the ground with externalities that they failed to consider. And we also only have a single model for infinite growth (cancer) that always leads to destruction, so relentless optimism as a biological organism means a need for infinite growth, which we only know to be a path to destruction. The answer, therefore, is not bitching on the internet about all the wet blankets who only see negative outcomes, but acknowledging that everything we know needs to end eventually including ourselves, and balancing optimism for the short term with cynicism for the long term. And thus discovering that a healthy cynicism for the future predictions is probably appropriate, unless you truly want to live forever and have infinite energy for everything. But that's a god.
    - perching_aix 1y ago
      Easier to plan for is an interesting lens to look through, can't immediately discard it for sure. From my perspective, negative expectations do have a higher chance of turning out real, but because negative expectations most often are just code for human misalignment. We have some philosophical, instinctual, or aesthetic (etc.) preferences, but then reality is always going to be broader than that. So you're bound to hit things that are in misalignment. It takes active effort to cultivate the world to be whatever particular way. But this is also why I find simple pleas to cynicism particularly hollow. It comes off as resignation, exactly where the opposite is what would be most required.

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago

the number of people who work for (or defend those who work for) firms like raytheon, northrop grumman, palantir, meta, amazon, microsoft, alphabet, flock et al leads me to believe there are not enough people left to care about building this technology. we're cooked. too many developers lack the moral position necessary to turn the tide in a meaningfully widespread way - at best, it's "if not me, someone else will do this work anyways, so i might as well be the one collecting the paycheck/stock options." at worst, it's "i think it's a good thing to create tools to surveil/manipulate/kill people." mourn the loss of the internet we knew and be ready to sacrifice ease of use to return to lower-tech/still-underground options.