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Shouldn't surprise absolutely nobody, once you become the gatekeeper of the Internet, you're going to gatekeep. Now it's torrent sites and next it's going to b

Shouldn't surprise absolutely nobody, once you become the gatekeeper of the Internet, you're going to gatekeep. Now it's torrent sites and next it's going to be other things the party in charge doesn't like.

heavensteeth 1y ago
Right, it's only natural; they MitM 20% of the internet. Similarly, I struggle to believe they're not providing much of the data they collect to the CIA.
- anon191928 1y ago
  CIA front like snapchat with all on camera access. Nothing surprising
gjsman-1000 1y ago
About a decade ago, there were proposals for a "driver's license for the internet." Nowadays... I actually think it might be a lesser evil. Picture such an ID, if there were a standard for it, enrolled into your computer. If it were properly built, your computer could provide proof of age, identity, or other verified attributes on approval. The ID could also have micro-transaction support, for allowing convenient pay-as-you-go 10 cents per article instead of paywalls, advertising, and subscriptions everywhere. Websites could just block all non-human traffic; awfully convenient in this era of growing spam, malware, AI slop, revenge porn, etc. Website operators, such as those of small forums, would have far less moderation and abuse prevention overhead. Theoretically, it would also massively improve cybersecurity, if websites didn't actually need your credit card number and unique identity anymore. Theoretically, if it was tied to your ID, it's like Privacy.com but for every website; much lower transaction friction but much higher security. I think that's the future at this rate. The only question is who decides how it is implemented.
- 63stack 1y ago
  This is so naive. Big tech would be the first to get various exceptions to train their greedy AIs. They would lobby so hard to lock down personal computers, just to make sure you are not tampering with your digital passport. Google would finally have their wet dream of locked down PCs that have no adblock. Politicians would be salivating at the idea of getting the real identities of dissenters, and religious fucks would finally have their way of banning porn and contraceptives.
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    You're assuming this isn't already in the works; I simply see it as we can make the standard now, or let the standard be dictated. We're already seeing it piecemeal, with Cloudflare supporting skipping CAPTCHAs on verified iOS and macOS devices; mobile driver's license enrollment options on iOS; age verification rollouts for websites with no-doubt people thinking how to streamline things; etc. I personally think we are one big cyberattack from the whole concept returning fast. One big cyberattack from governments (and people in general) saying they've had enough of the free-for-all status quo. This isn't a good place to be.
    - 63stack 1y ago
      I'm aware that this might very well be "in the works", what's your point with that? Who is this "we" you are talking about? Are you going to publish a repository on github about what you believe is the ethical way to do this, and you expect Google to follow, or ??? What is this "one big cyberattack away" that you are talking about? Large sites get hacked all the time, and _nobody_ in power gives a single flying fuck. There are zero people held responsible for storing passwords in plaintext, or the admin password set to "123456" or passwords left as the default. Seriously, what are you talking about?
    - const_cast 1y ago
      > You're assuming this isn't already in the works; I simply see it as we can make the standard now, or let the standard be dictated. The difference is we've grandfathered in a lot of older technology - x86, old desktop operating systems like Windows and Linux, old browsers, BIOS, etc. So the existing tools we have for censorship have to work around these existing platforms. These platforms were created in a time where user control was paramount and security was an afterthought. They often do not have the mechanisms required to lock down the boot loader 100% of the time, or give a verified boot chain, or make sure the display signal isn't being intercepted. Our DRM and censorship, then, is very limited. I mean, even with secure boot - I can just turn that off. I can just turn on legacy MBR BIOS mode too. What now? On other, newer, platforms, like your smartphone or smart TV, you'll notice the DRM is much stronger. Try changing out your OS on an iPhone. These platforms are ripe for the picking when it comes to censorship you can't circumvent. So long as these older platforms exist, the usecases must be supported. Sure, we can "streamline" things on DRM heavy platforms like iOS - but we need to keep a trapdoor. Who is going to alienate Windows? Or x86 as a whole?
- dingnuts 1y ago
  oh good, and your authoritarian government can know you're in the closet and trying to figure out how to leave the country, too! no, fuck this idea so hard. if this is inevitable, our duty is to build technology that defeats it
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    Local ID Proofs =/= Surveillance
    - dingnuts 1y ago
      it absolutely will mean surveillance, unless you were born yesterday. governments will implement what you're describing in a way that is not privacy preserving this is supposed to be HACKER news, not fucking bootlicker news
      - gjsman-1000 1y ago
        Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think the internet is covered in ads, 25% Cloudflare, infested with CAPTCHAs and IP blocking, and the problem gets worse every year? There are real problems that haven't been fixed; the driver's license concept correctly implemented might be better than continuing down this path. I view it as we can make a good standard; or let a bad standard be dictated.
        dingnuts 1y ago
        > Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think Obviously. Why do YOU think I'm angry-posting about it on the orange shithole site with the username "dingnuts" ?
        ipaddr 1y ago
        The drivers license id doesn't solve anything but adds a layer of nonsense on top. That doesn't stop cloudflares marketshare takeover. It doesn't stop CAPTCHA which will filter out bots using these ids. It provides an easy method for hackers to use. It filters out the curious kids. In the end it solves nothing and creates more problems.
- strken 1y ago
  I'm in favour of A) a restricted internet with an encryption scheme based on state controlled hardware devices, like Estonia has, that's accessible by default from browsers, and B) an unrestricted internet that's available to anyone who clicks through a few scary browser warnings, but is generally regarded as weird, dangerous, and not commercially viable except for weird or dangerous stuff.
  - xandrius 1y ago
    And then wait for when the well-funded and publicly supported A decides that B is evil and needs to be taken down.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Realistically, the moment the two are decoupled, B) is going to be banned and blocked outright - and the more they are decoupled, the easier it would be to ban. By and large, the only reason why it's still possible to access "dark" content online is because it's so intermeshed with the more mundane stuff on infrastructure level that the most efficient blocking methods have unacceptably high levels of collateral damage.
    - strken 1y ago
      I don't see how you'd decouple one from the other, given that it's essentially just giving the user their own encryption certificate. Have the EU pass legislation saying that you can't request that the user sign anything unless they're in the process of making an account.
- rendx 1y ago
  German national ID has this built-in; you can cryptographically prove that you are currently in possession of an ID (and its PIN) over a certain age, for example, without revealing your date of birth. It's just not in widespread use.
  - thmsths 1y ago
    Thank you for sharing this. I have been frustrated about the lack of chip and pin for IDs for years. We have had digital IDs in the form of debit/credit card since the 90s, and yet the governments have been agonizingly slow to adopt this (at least to me) painfully obvious idea. So good job Germany!
    - Sophira 1y ago
      Chip and PIN is almost how electronic passports already work - it's just that the 'PIN' is printed in the passport itself, so in order for anybody to communicate with the chip, it has to see the page which has it printed in order to scan for it first.
      - BobaFloutist 1y ago
        CA DMV app lets me add my driver's license to my mobile wallet (which works with NFC). Of course, it doesn't eliminate my legal responsibility to carry my driver's license while driving, and while the printed piece of plastic lasts five years and my passport booklet is legal I.D. for 10 years at a time, the mobile driver's license needs to be updated every 30 days.
        KoolKat23 1y ago
        Why have the digital version of you need the plastic copy still?
    - numpad0 1y ago
      The problem is national security consequences of it. Handing out nation-backed ID card tied to secure identity undermines sovereignty of the nation, because it means Walmart and likes can (illegally) exert political influence by silently or openly classing and discriminating you. It is important that personal ID is only transparent and spoof-proof to legitimate government the individual identifies with, and that soft ID databases that private entities may build have limitations in its completeness. That's not trivial to do right, especially through bureaucratic government processes.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- drnick1 1y ago
  No, just no. The Internet was at its best when it was centralized and anonymous. Let's keep it that way.
jasonlotito 1y ago
> Shouldn't surprise absolutely nobody... ...because this is far from the first time this has happened with Cloudflare.
- kragen 1y ago
  Is it? When did it happen before?

heavensteeth 1y ago

Right, it's only natural; they MitM 20% of the internet. Similarly, I struggle to believe they're not providing much of the data they collect to the CIA.

anon191928 1y ago
CIA front like snapchat with all on camera access. Nothing surprising

gjsman-1000 1y ago

About a decade ago, there were proposals for a "driver's license for the internet." Nowadays... I actually think it might be a lesser evil. Picture such an ID, if there were a standard for it, enrolled into your computer. If it were properly built, your computer could provide proof of age, identity, or other verified attributes on approval. The ID could also have micro-transaction support, for allowing convenient pay-as-you-go 10 cents per article instead of paywalls, advertising, and subscriptions everywhere. Websites could just block all non-human traffic; awfully convenient in this era of growing spam, malware, AI slop, revenge porn, etc. Website operators, such as those of small forums, would have far less moderation and abuse prevention overhead. Theoretically, it would also massively improve cybersecurity, if websites didn't actually need your credit card number and unique identity anymore. Theoretically, if it was tied to your ID, it's like Privacy.com but for every website; much lower transaction friction but much higher security. I think that's the future at this rate. The only question is who decides how it is implemented.

63stack 1y ago
This is so naive. Big tech would be the first to get various exceptions to train their greedy AIs. They would lobby so hard to lock down personal computers, just to make sure you are not tampering with your digital passport. Google would finally have their wet dream of locked down PCs that have no adblock. Politicians would be salivating at the idea of getting the real identities of dissenters, and religious fucks would finally have their way of banning porn and contraceptives.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  You're assuming this isn't already in the works; I simply see it as we can make the standard now, or let the standard be dictated. We're already seeing it piecemeal, with Cloudflare supporting skipping CAPTCHAs on verified iOS and macOS devices; mobile driver's license enrollment options on iOS; age verification rollouts for websites with no-doubt people thinking how to streamline things; etc. I personally think we are one big cyberattack from the whole concept returning fast. One big cyberattack from governments (and people in general) saying they've had enough of the free-for-all status quo. This isn't a good place to be.
  - 63stack 1y ago
    I'm aware that this might very well be "in the works", what's your point with that? Who is this "we" you are talking about? Are you going to publish a repository on github about what you believe is the ethical way to do this, and you expect Google to follow, or ??? What is this "one big cyberattack away" that you are talking about? Large sites get hacked all the time, and _nobody_ in power gives a single flying fuck. There are zero people held responsible for storing passwords in plaintext, or the admin password set to "123456" or passwords left as the default. Seriously, what are you talking about?
  - const_cast 1y ago
    > You're assuming this isn't already in the works; I simply see it as we can make the standard now, or let the standard be dictated. The difference is we've grandfathered in a lot of older technology - x86, old desktop operating systems like Windows and Linux, old browsers, BIOS, etc. So the existing tools we have for censorship have to work around these existing platforms. These platforms were created in a time where user control was paramount and security was an afterthought. They often do not have the mechanisms required to lock down the boot loader 100% of the time, or give a verified boot chain, or make sure the display signal isn't being intercepted. Our DRM and censorship, then, is very limited. I mean, even with secure boot - I can just turn that off. I can just turn on legacy MBR BIOS mode too. What now? On other, newer, platforms, like your smartphone or smart TV, you'll notice the DRM is much stronger. Try changing out your OS on an iPhone. These platforms are ripe for the picking when it comes to censorship you can't circumvent. So long as these older platforms exist, the usecases must be supported. Sure, we can "streamline" things on DRM heavy platforms like iOS - but we need to keep a trapdoor. Who is going to alienate Windows? Or x86 as a whole?
dingnuts 1y ago
oh good, and your authoritarian government can know you're in the closet and trying to figure out how to leave the country, too! no, fuck this idea so hard. if this is inevitable, our duty is to build technology that defeats it
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  Local ID Proofs =/= Surveillance
  - dingnuts 1y ago
    it absolutely will mean surveillance, unless you were born yesterday. governments will implement what you're describing in a way that is not privacy preserving this is supposed to be HACKER news, not fucking bootlicker news
    - gjsman-1000 1y ago
      Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think the internet is covered in ads, 25% Cloudflare, infested with CAPTCHAs and IP blocking, and the problem gets worse every year? There are real problems that haven't been fixed; the driver's license concept correctly implemented might be better than continuing down this path. I view it as we can make a good standard; or let a bad standard be dictated.
      - dingnuts 1y ago
        > Yes, and we're losing. Why do you think Obviously. Why do YOU think I'm angry-posting about it on the orange shithole site with the username "dingnuts" ?
      - ipaddr 1y ago
        The drivers license id doesn't solve anything but adds a layer of nonsense on top. That doesn't stop cloudflares marketshare takeover. It doesn't stop CAPTCHA which will filter out bots using these ids. It provides an easy method for hackers to use. It filters out the curious kids. In the end it solves nothing and creates more problems.
strken 1y ago
I'm in favour of A) a restricted internet with an encryption scheme based on state controlled hardware devices, like Estonia has, that's accessible by default from browsers, and B) an unrestricted internet that's available to anyone who clicks through a few scary browser warnings, but is generally regarded as weird, dangerous, and not commercially viable except for weird or dangerous stuff.
- xandrius 1y ago
  And then wait for when the well-funded and publicly supported A decides that B is evil and needs to be taken down.
- int_19h 1y ago
  Realistically, the moment the two are decoupled, B) is going to be banned and blocked outright - and the more they are decoupled, the easier it would be to ban. By and large, the only reason why it's still possible to access "dark" content online is because it's so intermeshed with the more mundane stuff on infrastructure level that the most efficient blocking methods have unacceptably high levels of collateral damage.
  - strken 1y ago
    I don't see how you'd decouple one from the other, given that it's essentially just giving the user their own encryption certificate. Have the EU pass legislation saying that you can't request that the user sign anything unless they're in the process of making an account.
rendx 1y ago
German national ID has this built-in; you can cryptographically prove that you are currently in possession of an ID (and its PIN) over a certain age, for example, without revealing your date of birth. It's just not in widespread use.
- thmsths 1y ago
  Thank you for sharing this. I have been frustrated about the lack of chip and pin for IDs for years. We have had digital IDs in the form of debit/credit card since the 90s, and yet the governments have been agonizingly slow to adopt this (at least to me) painfully obvious idea. So good job Germany!
  - Sophira 1y ago
    Chip and PIN is almost how electronic passports already work - it's just that the 'PIN' is printed in the passport itself, so in order for anybody to communicate with the chip, it has to see the page which has it printed in order to scan for it first.
    - BobaFloutist 1y ago
      CA DMV app lets me add my driver's license to my mobile wallet (which works with NFC). Of course, it doesn't eliminate my legal responsibility to carry my driver's license while driving, and while the printed piece of plastic lasts five years and my passport booklet is legal I.D. for 10 years at a time, the mobile driver's license needs to be updated every 30 days.
      - KoolKat23 1y ago
        Why have the digital version of you need the plastic copy still?
  - numpad0 1y ago
    The problem is national security consequences of it. Handing out nation-backed ID card tied to secure identity undermines sovereignty of the nation, because it means Walmart and likes can (illegally) exert political influence by silently or openly classing and discriminating you. It is important that personal ID is only transparent and spoof-proof to legitimate government the individual identifies with, and that soft ID databases that private entities may build have limitations in its completeness. That's not trivial to do right, especially through bureaucratic government processes.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
drnick1 1y ago
No, just no. The Internet was at its best when it was centralized and anonymous. Let's keep it that way.

jasonlotito 1y ago

> Shouldn't surprise absolutely nobody... ...because this is far from the first time this has happened with Cloudflare.

kragen 1y ago
Is it? When did it happen before?