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That statistic could also be the result of excessive prosecution against black/minorities and not necessarily just jury bias. (Which would also explain the whit

That statistic could also be the result of excessive prosecution against black/minorities and not necessarily just jury bias. (Which would also explain the white bias against whites)

sebmellen 1y ago
If you're curious about this topic, I'd recommend you look up interviews with the jurors in the OJ Simpson trial. Many were black and by their own admission made their decision about OJ's guilt-based entirely on a feeling of racial justice. They considered it “payback.” https://youtu.be/BUJCLdmNzAA?feature=shared https://youtu.be/BUJCLdmNzAA?feature=shared
- dmonitor 1y ago
  OJ Simpson is was such a famous case that I'd be inclined to treat it as an outlier in many ways, not the norm.
  - taeric 1y ago
    Agreed. Outliers are a thing. As is cherry-picking data to try and prove a point. Sucks, as this level of cherry-picking heavily biases me against the premise. If someone has a good data set, they don't need to drive anecdotes from the outliers. And if they are, is it an attempt to hide that the overall data paints a different picture?
  - thephyber 1y ago
    But I would argue that jury mentality is universal. Any juror who knows about the concept of jury nullification is more likely to use it when the defendant reminds them of themselves or when the prosecution has so vastly disproportionate resources over the defendant that the trial can’t possibly be fair.
    - reverendsteveii 1y ago
      >I would argue that jury mentality is universal Then argue it, because that's a pretty large thing to say unsupported
- hiimkeks 1y ago
  I don't think one of the most high-profile and racially charged cases in history can serve as a reasonable benchmark for how the bulk of cases are handled. Edit: Not sure why I am being downvoted, I tried to say the same thing dmonitor said.
- wat10000 1y ago
  And the LAPD seems to have decided OJ was guilty based largely on a feeling of racial prejudice. The fact that he actually did it was coincidental. I've often seen that trial described as the LAPD framing a guilty man. The prosecution did a terrible job and I'm not at all convinced the acquittal wasn't the correct verdict, even if it's pretty clearly contrary to the facts of what happened. It seems safe to assume that the LAPD also did/does this to less famous people of color, in which case a higher rate of voting to acquit would not indicate bias by the jury.
  - thephyber 1y ago
    I would argue OJ would have been arrested far earlier for DV (long before the murder) if the LAPD didn’t have such a hard-on for the celebrity.
  - eszed 1y ago
    > not at all convinced the acquittal wasn't the correct verdict I agree with you. I followed it closely at the time, and thought acquittal was the correct verdict based (only) on what the jury saw. We court-watchers, of course, saw everything that the defense managed to exclude, and came to a different (and I do believe more accurate) conclusion, but the jury got it - from their (deliberately constructed by the defense) point of view - right. It was a formative episode in my civic understanding.
like_any_other 1y ago
A universal counterargument that works on any data. But unlikely to be true, given that the UK sentenced a BME perpetrator to a short 2 years for one-punch-killing an 82-year-old veteran [1], while "threatening gestures" at police and chanting "who the f- is Allah" earn the White perpetrator 18 months in prison [2], and merely being present at a protest, while not engaging in any violence, earns 32 months in prison [3]. We also have to ask - if the biases in that study were flipped, if White jurors were far more likely to convict BME defendants, and pardon White defendants, and BME jurors were the more even-handed ones, would this not be trumpeted as conclusive evidence of racism? [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66959198 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66959198 [2] https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/24515551.london-disorder-recap-court-protesters-sentenced/ https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/24515551.london-disord... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/08/pensioner-69-given-prison-sentence-for-violent-disorder-in-english-riots https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/08/pens...
- drdaeman 1y ago
  I’m curious, had any legislatures tried blinded trials, where judges and/or juries don’t see the litigants, don’t know their names or location details, and otherwise only have access to the information on a need-to-know basis? Sort of like how removing names, ages and photos from resumes removes demographic biases and makes one focus on the actual skillset. (I’m not sure if this is a good idea, merely wondering if it was tried.)
  - drdec 1y ago
    Wouldn't that be kind of tough since one of juries main function is evaluation of witnesses. Without seeing the witnesses face or hearing their voice, how could one do that?
    - wat10000 1y ago
      The whole point is that they would be evaluating the witnesses' testimony, not their mannerisms and appearance (read: how culturally and racially similar they are to the jury, or to the "high class" ideal of their society).
anonym29 1y ago
What quantitatively separates "excessive prosecution" from "prosecution"?
- digitalPhonix 1y ago
  Anything that is statistically visible? I’m not making a value judgement; I was just pointing out other explanations of the statistics.
  - anonym29 1y ago
    So, like the excessive prosecution of men, who receive sentences about twice as long as women for committing the exact same crimes, on average? Men are prosecuted at far higher rates than women, too.

That statistic could also be the result of excessive prosecution against black/minorities and not necessarily just jury bias. (Which would also explain the white bias against whites)

sebmellen 1y ago

If you're curious about this topic, I'd recommend you look up interviews with the jurors in the OJ Simpson trial. Many were black and by their own admission made their decision about OJ's guilt-based entirely on a feeling of racial justice. They considered it “payback.” https://youtu.be/BUJCLdmNzAA?feature=shared https://youtu.be/BUJCLdmNzAA?feature=shared

dmonitor 1y ago
OJ Simpson is was such a famous case that I'd be inclined to treat it as an outlier in many ways, not the norm.
- taeric 1y ago
  Agreed. Outliers are a thing. As is cherry-picking data to try and prove a point. Sucks, as this level of cherry-picking heavily biases me against the premise. If someone has a good data set, they don't need to drive anecdotes from the outliers. And if they are, is it an attempt to hide that the overall data paints a different picture?
- thephyber 1y ago
  But I would argue that jury mentality is universal. Any juror who knows about the concept of jury nullification is more likely to use it when the defendant reminds them of themselves or when the prosecution has so vastly disproportionate resources over the defendant that the trial can’t possibly be fair.
  - reverendsteveii 1y ago
    >I would argue that jury mentality is universal Then argue it, because that's a pretty large thing to say unsupported
hiimkeks 1y ago
I don't think one of the most high-profile and racially charged cases in history can serve as a reasonable benchmark for how the bulk of cases are handled. Edit: Not sure why I am being downvoted, I tried to say the same thing dmonitor said.
wat10000 1y ago
And the LAPD seems to have decided OJ was guilty based largely on a feeling of racial prejudice. The fact that he actually did it was coincidental. I've often seen that trial described as the LAPD framing a guilty man. The prosecution did a terrible job and I'm not at all convinced the acquittal wasn't the correct verdict, even if it's pretty clearly contrary to the facts of what happened. It seems safe to assume that the LAPD also did/does this to less famous people of color, in which case a higher rate of voting to acquit would not indicate bias by the jury.
- thephyber 1y ago
  I would argue OJ would have been arrested far earlier for DV (long before the murder) if the LAPD didn’t have such a hard-on for the celebrity.
- eszed 1y ago
  > not at all convinced the acquittal wasn't the correct verdict I agree with you. I followed it closely at the time, and thought acquittal was the correct verdict based (only) on what the jury saw. We court-watchers, of course, saw everything that the defense managed to exclude, and came to a different (and I do believe more accurate) conclusion, but the jury got it - from their (deliberately constructed by the defense) point of view - right. It was a formative episode in my civic understanding.

like_any_other 1y ago

A universal counterargument that works on any data. But unlikely to be true, given that the UK sentenced a BME perpetrator to a short 2 years for one-punch-killing an 82-year-old veteran [1], while "threatening gestures" at police and chanting "who the f- is Allah" earn the White perpetrator 18 months in prison [2], and merely being present at a protest, while not engaging in any violence, earns 32 months in prison [3]. We also have to ask - if the biases in that study were flipped, if White jurors were far more likely to convict BME defendants, and pardon White defendants, and BME jurors were the more even-handed ones, would this not be trumpeted as conclusive evidence of racism? [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66959198 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-66959198 [2] https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/24515551.london-disorder-recap-court-protesters-sentenced/ https://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/24515551.london-disord... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/08/pensioner-69-given-prison-sentence-for-violent-disorder-in-english-riots https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/08/pens...

drdaeman 1y ago
I’m curious, had any legislatures tried blinded trials, where judges and/or juries don’t see the litigants, don’t know their names or location details, and otherwise only have access to the information on a need-to-know basis? Sort of like how removing names, ages and photos from resumes removes demographic biases and makes one focus on the actual skillset. (I’m not sure if this is a good idea, merely wondering if it was tried.)
- drdec 1y ago
  Wouldn't that be kind of tough since one of juries main function is evaluation of witnesses. Without seeing the witnesses face or hearing their voice, how could one do that?
  - wat10000 1y ago
    The whole point is that they would be evaluating the witnesses' testimony, not their mannerisms and appearance (read: how culturally and racially similar they are to the jury, or to the "high class" ideal of their society).

anonym29 1y ago

What quantitatively separates "excessive prosecution" from "prosecution"?

digitalPhonix 1y ago
Anything that is statistically visible? I’m not making a value judgement; I was just pointing out other explanations of the statistics.
- anonym29 1y ago
  So, like the excessive prosecution of men, who receive sentences about twice as long as women for committing the exact same crimes, on average? Men are prosecuted at far higher rates than women, too.