6 ms·

Cats as Horror Movie Villains

32 points by mparramon 1y ago

treetalker 1y ago
The question is why some humans find house cats fascinating and abide them. I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (and possibly the feline one) are in the causal chain. Toxoplasmosis is not necessarily the parasite at issue, but it could be; and it serves as proof of an organism that can be transmitted between humans and house cats, and also that is known to cause behavioral changes (albeit in nonhuman mammals).
- rmunn 1y ago
  You don't have to get that complicated to look for the reason. It's the purring. I am just one data point and you'd need to find others, but I find cats that purr loudly much more appealing than cats whose purring is so quiet that it's hard to hear. I believe if you were to survey other people who keep cats as pets, you'd find most would agree with that.
  - wrp 1y ago
    When I was a kid, my family got a kitten and a puppy at the same time. There were no other domestic animals around, so the two had only each other for socialization. The dog apparently observed how much attention the cat got when it purred, so it developed a habit of making a strange guttural noise when it was petted. We figured it was trying to purr.
- topspin 1y ago
  > The question is why I've had one or more around most of my life. They're fun to play with and comedic. They genuinely like their people. They're simultaneously willful and cooperative. They have many habits and preferences, and each one is distinct. They're highly communicative if you understand their motives and language. If you need to control rodents they are extremely effective and earn their keep. There is nothing more endearing than a proud cat eagerly bringing its catch home to share with its pride. Some people are freaked out by this, not realizing that there is no higher praise a cat can express, hunting on your behalf. So many dimensions. If a cat likes you it actually likes you: there is no lie in them. All that said, I'm glad house cats are small. :)
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    Cats all do the same things. But they have very clearly defined unique personalities, with big variations in intelligence and other qualities. Also, relaxing. Having a dependent of any kind sleeping soundly close to you implies safety and reassurance in a very primal and satisfying way. And cats sleep far more than humans do. Even when they're not active they're nice to have around. I'm not convinced by the "tamed predator" hypothesis. I think if it were true we'd consider them exciting but stressful - like crime fiction. Clearly we don't. No one sleeps next to a violent crime novel for relaxation. In fact cat owners often get cognitive dissonance when Furry McPurrFace goes out and eviscerates a bird for breakfast. We feel sorry for the bird, but we don't seriously think "That could have been me. Or one of the kids."
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      > and eviscerates a bird And there we have what really happened to the dinosaurs.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Occasionally The Cat would look at me with those "I wish you were smaller" eyes.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    A friend once said that, if we suddenly shrank to six inches high, our dog would still listen to our orders, but our cat would try to kill us.
- ge96 1y ago
  My cat sleeps in the same bed as me and greets me when I wake up
- bryanrasmussen 1y ago
  And in the article “They were…continually caressing the cats, and holding them up for the admiration of their companions on shore.” the admiration of the companions on shore - that is some particularly quick acting distance obliterating parasites
- thinkingemote 1y ago
  Gwern gives his opinion (I'm inclined to agree but I really love the idea that it could be the reason!) "The Toxoplasma literature is dogged by small effect sizes and associated pathologies like p-hacking, extensive confounding (in addition to the obvious reverse causation), poor replication (every study seemingly finding a Toxo correlation in something else), and lack of any clear mechanism for how Toxo could be doing anything in a primate species so evolutionarily distant from its rodent target. So, as entertaining as it would be if cat-lovers were being brainwashed by a mouse parasite futilely attempting to get them eaten by their pet cat, I doubt that any effect exists at all—much less that it is the explanation."
- latexr 1y ago
  > I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (…) Toxoplasmosis Yeah yeah, I read that same article fifteen years ago. I don’t buy it. For one, there are many other symptoms besides behavioural changes, so we’d have way more known cases of infections. For another, those parasites aren’t transmissible over the internet and thus do not explain the whole of human fascination with cats. It’s a much more plausible explanation that cats are interesting and reliable companions, with distinct personalities and preferences.
noelwelsh 1y ago
I feel this article makes up an elaborate story when a much simpler explanation is available if you've lived with a cat: they are nice to have around.
- LoganDark 1y ago
  If you read the article, it specifically talks about phenomena not observed with other animals, like dogs. I don't know if I agree that such phenomena certainly exists, but that doesn't mean it can't be a fun thought exercise to speculate about potential reasons for one.
  - noelwelsh 1y ago
    Yeah, I too thought it was fun. I probably wouldn't write up a whole article on this idea, however.
atemerev 1y ago
An interesting hypothesis, but I don't see similar fascination with pet snakes.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  While historically dangerous to people, <0.001% of snakes will prey upon humans. Large cats vs. primates is quite different.
  - atemerev 1y ago
    ...and, besides that, most of the "wow kitty" factor activates after small cats (not necessarily domestic cats). European wildcat: yes. Sand cat: yes. Pallas cat: absolutely. Ocelot: kitty! gimme gimme gimme. Lynx: maybe. Leopards, tigers, jaguars: beautiful, but dangerous, interesting to watch, but no oxytocine release. So I am still not convinced.
jwilk 1y ago
> canid predators like hyenas Hyenas are not canids; they are feliformia ("cat-like" carnivorans).
- skywal_l 1y ago
  From Wikipedia: > Although phylogenetically closer to felines and viverrids, hyenas are behaviourally and morphologically similar to canids in several elements due to convergent evolution: both hyenas and canines are non-arboreal So for the purpose of this article, which states that because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves, we can consider them on the dog side.
  - nosianu 1y ago
    > because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves That's on an individual level only though? Dogs/wolves are pack animals. I once stood in an empty eastern European city street and a pack of smallish/midsize street dogs came running straight towards me. For the first time I truly understood our ancestors fears[#]. If it had been just one or two dogs, especially with their at most middlish size I would not have cared. A whole pack is a very different ball game. . [#] They just ran past me, fortunately.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
dabedee 1y ago
There is a pretty graphic/emotionally-charged image in the article (I understand it's part of nature), for those who might not have the strength to see something like that today.
- junon 1y ago
  My first thought before looking was "meh it's probably not that bad" but yeah, it's pretty sad. Alas, that is nature.
- latexr 1y ago
  I think your comment and the reply might leave some people even more curious, so I’ll just reproduce the image’s description so everyone can make a more informed choice. > 2022 photo by wildlife photographer Shafeeq Mulla (23yo) in South Luangwa National Park, Zambia. The image shows Olimba, an old female leopard, carrying a deceased vervet monkey (with its infant clinging to it) to her lair to feed her cub. The cub reportedly killed the infant monkey while playing. Photo originally posted on Latest Sightings.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
xg15 1y ago
> What is going on here? Do we really like cats because they have ‘baby faces’ or because they are ‘neotenous’ or kittens sound a little like human babies? These are common theories, but make little sense to me. The relationship between baby-faces and animal liking is weak to begin with (eg. Archer & Monton 2010). Cats objectively do not look that much like babies. This strikes me as a too simplistic view of neoteny. You could have a look at Anime or Pixar or cartoon characters and ask the same questions. They also objectively don't look like kids if you make a photo comparison side-by-side (at least in certain styles). Their features are so exaggerated they strictly speaking don't even look human. Nevertheless, they can cause strong reactions and emotions in viewers in a similar way OP here described for cats. My guess is that both (cats and anime) hacked our visual network in a sense: They took some visual features that evoke "cuteness" in humans and which likely evolved for the purpose of driving us to protect our kids - and dialled them up to 11 and combined them with not child-like features to evoke a response that's even more intense than the one we have for kids. So in a sense, they look more like kids than actual kids do.
- derbOac 1y ago
  You can hypothesize something older too: that neoteny is about mammalian caretaking, not even human per se. I hypothesize if it's furry and small enough, with simple enough facial features, it will look cute.
  - xg15 1y ago
    Interesting point. Yeah, maybe that instinct is so old, it dates back to human ancestors that still had fur... Of course, this could also support OP's hypothesis: Maybe there was another set of visual receptors (triggering on cat ears, muzzles or stripes?) that evolved specifically to detect big cats, because they were dangerous predators to us - and we're "mis"using those visual receptors as well now. I'm not completely convinced: There are other examples of evolved visual receptors against predators that are well-known I think - like spiders. And they do cause a response, but that response is overwhelmingly negative, sometimes so intensely so that it can drive people into a phobia. So it doesn't seem like a negative trigger can flip into a positive one so easily. Then again, some people have pet spiders and think they are cute, so - who knows... Edit: Also, maybe the scale plays a role? Spiders are tiny, even the dangerous ones - so a "detector" would have to be highly sensitive, triggering strong responses even for very small stimuli. In contrast, big cats are big. The detector could afford to be a lot less sensitive, because the scale itself is a feature - so when watching a small housecat, the detector's response could be subdued enough to be "pleasant" in a "spicy food" or "horror movie" sense, especially if you combine it with the already positive response from the "cuteness" detector. Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling...
ajb 1y ago
I think there is a general principle here: - evolutionarily evolved feelings do not need to be logically consistent with the evolutionary benefit, as a long as they cause the evolutionarily beneficial behavior An example that I observe is in guinea pigs. These are quintessential prey animals, and benefit from being under cover. If domestic guinea pigs don't have cover for a few hours, and are then given it, they run under the cover. Do they then breathe a sign of relief, and show signs that their emotion is one of renewed safety? No, they jump up and down, and squeak noisily in excitement! Apparently being under cover is cool.
robotguy 1y ago
You remember that super popular kid (+5 CHA) in middle or high school who wouldn't acknowledge your existence in a group, but would suddenly somehow make you feel like the center of the world when there was no one else available and they deigned to turn their attention to you? That's a cat. My theory, anyway. Also, have to mention a relevant quote from the beginning of Dungeon Crawler Carl which features an awakened cat as one of it's protagonists: "I get it cats are assholes, but you know why people like cats despite their assholeness? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T F*$#ING TALK! If cats could talk and they were all like you, they'd be extinct because we'd have killed them already!"
- cindyllm 1y ago
  [dead]

32 points by mparramon 1y ago

The question is why some humans find house cats fascinating and abide them. I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (and possibly the feline one) are in the causal chain. Toxoplasmosis is not necessarily the parasite at issue, but it could be; and it serves as proof of an organism that can be transmitted between humans and house cats, and also that is known to cause behavioral changes (albeit in nonhuman mammals).

rmunn 1y ago
You don't have to get that complicated to look for the reason. It's the purring. I am just one data point and you'd need to find others, but I find cats that purr loudly much more appealing than cats whose purring is so quiet that it's hard to hear. I believe if you were to survey other people who keep cats as pets, you'd find most would agree with that.
- wrp 1y ago
  When I was a kid, my family got a kitten and a puppy at the same time. There were no other domestic animals around, so the two had only each other for socialization. The dog apparently observed how much attention the cat got when it purred, so it developed a habit of making a strange guttural noise when it was petted. We figured it was trying to purr.
topspin 1y ago
> The question is why I've had one or more around most of my life. They're fun to play with and comedic. They genuinely like their people. They're simultaneously willful and cooperative. They have many habits and preferences, and each one is distinct. They're highly communicative if you understand their motives and language. If you need to control rodents they are extremely effective and earn their keep. There is nothing more endearing than a proud cat eagerly bringing its catch home to share with its pride. Some people are freaked out by this, not realizing that there is no higher praise a cat can express, hunting on your behalf. So many dimensions. If a cat likes you it actually likes you: there is no lie in them. All that said, I'm glad house cats are small. :)
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  Cats all do the same things. But they have very clearly defined unique personalities, with big variations in intelligence and other qualities. Also, relaxing. Having a dependent of any kind sleeping soundly close to you implies safety and reassurance in a very primal and satisfying way. And cats sleep far more than humans do. Even when they're not active they're nice to have around. I'm not convinced by the "tamed predator" hypothesis. I think if it were true we'd consider them exciting but stressful - like crime fiction. Clearly we don't. No one sleeps next to a violent crime novel for relaxation. In fact cat owners often get cognitive dissonance when Furry McPurrFace goes out and eviscerates a bird for breakfast. We feel sorry for the bird, but we don't seriously think "That could have been me. Or one of the kids."
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > and eviscerates a bird And there we have what really happened to the dinosaurs.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Occasionally The Cat would look at me with those "I wish you were smaller" eyes.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  A friend once said that, if we suddenly shrank to six inches high, our dog would still listen to our orders, but our cat would try to kill us.
ge96 1y ago
My cat sleeps in the same bed as me and greets me when I wake up
bryanrasmussen 1y ago
And in the article “They were…continually caressing the cats, and holding them up for the admiration of their companions on shore.” the admiration of the companions on shore - that is some particularly quick acting distance obliterating parasites
thinkingemote 1y ago
Gwern gives his opinion (I'm inclined to agree but I really love the idea that it could be the reason!) "The Toxoplasma literature is dogged by small effect sizes and associated pathologies like p-hacking, extensive confounding (in addition to the obvious reverse causation), poor replication (every study seemingly finding a Toxo correlation in something else), and lack of any clear mechanism for how Toxo could be doing anything in a primate species so evolutionarily distant from its rodent target. So, as entertaining as it would be if cat-lovers were being brainwashed by a mouse parasite futilely attempting to get them eaten by their pet cat, I doubt that any effect exists at all—much less that it is the explanation."
latexr 1y ago
> I hypothesize that parasites affecting the human nervous system (…) Toxoplasmosis Yeah yeah, I read that same article fifteen years ago. I don’t buy it. For one, there are many other symptoms besides behavioural changes, so we’d have way more known cases of infections. For another, those parasites aren’t transmissible over the internet and thus do not explain the whole of human fascination with cats. It’s a much more plausible explanation that cats are interesting and reliable companions, with distinct personalities and preferences.

noelwelsh 1y ago

I feel this article makes up an elaborate story when a much simpler explanation is available if you've lived with a cat: they are nice to have around.

LoganDark 1y ago
If you read the article, it specifically talks about phenomena not observed with other animals, like dogs. I don't know if I agree that such phenomena certainly exists, but that doesn't mean it can't be a fun thought exercise to speculate about potential reasons for one.
- noelwelsh 1y ago
  Yeah, I too thought it was fun. I probably wouldn't write up a whole article on this idea, however.

atemerev 1y ago

An interesting hypothesis, but I don't see similar fascination with pet snakes.

bell-cot 1y ago
While historically dangerous to people, <0.001% of snakes will prey upon humans. Large cats vs. primates is quite different.
- atemerev 1y ago
  ...and, besides that, most of the "wow kitty" factor activates after small cats (not necessarily domestic cats). European wildcat: yes. Sand cat: yes. Pallas cat: absolutely. Ocelot: kitty! gimme gimme gimme. Lynx: maybe. Leopards, tigers, jaguars: beautiful, but dangerous, interesting to watch, but no oxytocine release. So I am still not convinced.

jwilk 1y ago

> canid predators like hyenas Hyenas are not canids; they are feliformia ("cat-like" carnivorans).

skywal_l 1y ago
From Wikipedia: > Although phylogenetically closer to felines and viverrids, hyenas are behaviourally and morphologically similar to canids in several elements due to convergent evolution: both hyenas and canines are non-arboreal So for the purpose of this article, which states that because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves, we can consider them on the dog side.
- nosianu 1y ago
  > because cats can climb trees are more of a danger to humans than dog/wolves That's on an individual level only though? Dogs/wolves are pack animals. I once stood in an empty eastern European city street and a pack of smallish/midsize street dogs came running straight towards me. For the first time I truly understood our ancestors fears[#]. If it had been just one or two dogs, especially with their at most middlish size I would not have cared. A whole pack is a very different ball game. . [#] They just ran past me, fortunately.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

dabedee 1y ago

There is a pretty graphic/emotionally-charged image in the article (I understand it's part of nature), for those who might not have the strength to see something like that today.

junon 1y ago
My first thought before looking was "meh it's probably not that bad" but yeah, it's pretty sad. Alas, that is nature.
latexr 1y ago
I think your comment and the reply might leave some people even more curious, so I’ll just reproduce the image’s description so everyone can make a more informed choice. > 2022 photo by wildlife photographer Shafeeq Mulla (23yo) in South Luangwa National Park, Zambia. The image shows Olimba, an old female leopard, carrying a deceased vervet monkey (with its infant clinging to it) to her lair to feed her cub. The cub reportedly killed the infant monkey while playing. Photo originally posted on Latest Sightings.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

xg15 1y ago

> What is going on here? Do we really like cats because they have ‘baby faces’ or because they are ‘neotenous’ or kittens sound a little like human babies? These are common theories, but make little sense to me. The relationship between baby-faces and animal liking is weak to begin with (eg. Archer & Monton 2010). Cats objectively do not look that much like babies. This strikes me as a too simplistic view of neoteny. You could have a look at Anime or Pixar or cartoon characters and ask the same questions. They also objectively don't look like kids if you make a photo comparison side-by-side (at least in certain styles). Their features are so exaggerated they strictly speaking don't even look human. Nevertheless, they can cause strong reactions and emotions in viewers in a similar way OP here described for cats. My guess is that both (cats and anime) hacked our visual network in a sense: They took some visual features that evoke "cuteness" in humans and which likely evolved for the purpose of driving us to protect our kids - and dialled them up to 11 and combined them with not child-like features to evoke a response that's even more intense than the one we have for kids. So in a sense, they look more like kids than actual kids do.

derbOac 1y ago
You can hypothesize something older too: that neoteny is about mammalian caretaking, not even human per se. I hypothesize if it's furry and small enough, with simple enough facial features, it will look cute.
- xg15 1y ago
  Interesting point. Yeah, maybe that instinct is so old, it dates back to human ancestors that still had fur... Of course, this could also support OP's hypothesis: Maybe there was another set of visual receptors (triggering on cat ears, muzzles or stripes?) that evolved specifically to detect big cats, because they were dangerous predators to us - and we're "mis"using those visual receptors as well now. I'm not completely convinced: There are other examples of evolved visual receptors against predators that are well-known I think - like spiders. And they do cause a response, but that response is overwhelmingly negative, sometimes so intensely so that it can drive people into a phobia. So it doesn't seem like a negative trigger can flip into a positive one so easily. Then again, some people have pet spiders and think they are cute, so - who knows... Edit: Also, maybe the scale plays a role? Spiders are tiny, even the dangerous ones - so a "detector" would have to be highly sensitive, triggering strong responses even for very small stimuli. In contrast, big cats are big. The detector could afford to be a lot less sensitive, because the scale itself is a feature - so when watching a small housecat, the detector's response could be subdued enough to be "pleasant" in a "spicy food" or "horror movie" sense, especially if you combine it with the already positive response from the "cuteness" detector. Not sure if this makes any sense, so sorry for rambling...

ajb 1y ago

I think there is a general principle here: - evolutionarily evolved feelings do not need to be logically consistent with the evolutionary benefit, as a long as they cause the evolutionarily beneficial behavior An example that I observe is in guinea pigs. These are quintessential prey animals, and benefit from being under cover. If domestic guinea pigs don't have cover for a few hours, and are then given it, they run under the cover. Do they then breathe a sign of relief, and show signs that their emotion is one of renewed safety? No, they jump up and down, and squeak noisily in excitement! Apparently being under cover is cool.

robotguy 1y ago

You remember that super popular kid (+5 CHA) in middle or high school who wouldn't acknowledge your existence in a group, but would suddenly somehow make you feel like the center of the world when there was no one else available and they deigned to turn their attention to you? That's a cat. My theory, anyway. Also, have to mention a relevant quote from the beginning of Dungeon Crawler Carl which features an awakened cat as one of it's protagonists: "I get it cats are assholes, but you know why people like cats despite their assholeness? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T F*$#ING TALK! If cats could talk and they were all like you, they'd be extinct because we'd have killed them already!"

cindyllm 1y ago
[dead]