6 ms·

The End of Windows 10: a toolkit for community repair groups

69 points by T-A 1y ago

ivraatiems 1y ago
I disagree with the framing of running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware as an undesirable option compared to desktop Linux, for several reasons. For context, I have several years' experience in the recycled and refurbished computer market and I regularly sell machines with Linux, ChromeOS Flex, Windows 11 on supported hardware, and Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics. The problem is not that they're not usable when things are working right. The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. ChromeOS Flex is a partial solution, as many people are familiar with it, but it is useless on a lot of hardware due to lack of drivers and is not a good fit for more powerful machines. On the other hand, if you install Windows 11 on a machine that doesn't support it, you get all security updates for the next year, and all the drivers you need are typically present in Windows Update. In situations where there is a need for legacy drivers, they usually work after a simple install. I have installed Windows 11 on systems from 2011 and 2012 and had it work flawlessly, and fast enough for basic use. Windows 11 itself isn't perfect, but moving from 10 to 11 is nowhere near the complexity of moving from 10 to Linux. Of course, the big issue is that after that year of security updates, one has to manually download the next "feature update" and install it to get another year of updates. This isn't hard to do per se, but it's approaching the kind of complexity that the average person isn't going to navigate smoothly. I don't have a great solution for this yet, though I am thinking about one. For now, I just include disclaimers and documentation about what to do to make things easier. Even so, compared to something like a Linux major version upgrade, this is quite straightforward. There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go.
- garbagepatch 1y ago
  What is unsupported hardware in this context? Machines without TPM 2.0?
  - yourusername 1y ago
    It's not just TPM 2.0, you also need a supported CPU. Everything before Intel 8th gen and Zen+ (including 1st gen Ryzen) is not supported even if you have TPM 2.0
- genocidicbunny 1y ago
  Can you actually install W11 on a machine that doesn't support TPM2? Iirc, Microsoft recently-ish got rid of the workarounds that allowed installation on machines that don't support TPM2. If there is still another workaround, I'd love to know about it (and especially if it requires a Microsoft account or can be done 'offline') since my daily driver doesn't have TPM2. Also, what sorts of machines are you installing W11 on that are 'unsupported'? My daily driver initially came with W8.1 and for a while, I couldn't update to W10 because there were no W10 wifi drivers available; The manually-installed 8.1 ones were extremely flakey. And this isn't some no-name laptop too, it's a Thinkpad which you'd think would be well supported.
  - yourusername 1y ago
    Last i checked you can still use DISM to apply a image to the local drive, this bypasses the installer completely.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    A Windows 11 24H2 ISO will install on a machine w/o a TPM 2.0 module using the command line argument "/Product Server". (You can do this as either an "upgrade" to Windows 10 or on a clean machine by using the Shift-F10 shortcut to get a command prompt and run the setup from there.) I'm on mobile and don't have a reference handy but search-engine this and you'll find instructions.
    - 1y ago
userbinator 1y ago
It's already been a decade(!), yet I still remember the introduction of this amazingly spyware-filled OS like it was yesterday, and the large public backlash it caused. Unfortunately its successor is even worse, which may be why it still has a fanbase today. Meanwhile, I know there are plenty who are still using Win7 and below, and there's even a nontrivial community writing drivers for newer hardware and such.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  This "Windows now sucks and finally will trigger a wave of users switching to Linux" is something that goes back to Vista days, it is getting tiresome, because has it has been proven, unless it is the Linux kernel being wrapped in Android, ChromeOS or WebOS userland, the common people won't even bother.
  - dijit 1y ago
    it's a chicken and egg problem. People don't like uncertainty. Installing after-market operating systems will always be a hobbyist thing. Not entirely dissimilar to cars: some people will go into the details and even of those not many will customise their vehicle. Because "the market" is so small, nobody bothers making things that you can buy off the shelf. And when I mean "off the shelf", I literally mean at a physical store you can actually go to and try things. Having a "developer edition" or a drop down on a website isn't going to move the needle, because you have to know what you're looking for in order for that dropdown to be meaningful. Once we have a handful of manufacturers actually selling Linux based laptops in stores I think we'll get more adoption, however you can see how strong the stranglehold that these giant companies have on the market when you merely compare AMD to Intel; even now AMD remains a niche CPU in stores despite absolutely trouncing Intel for the last half-decade, and seeing any market penetration in stores took years despite being clearly superior in performance, battery life and temperature - Linux, for many people is not "clearly superior" in such clear cut ways.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Additionally, the netbooks wave proved the point that even when there are computers at the store with GNU/Linux pre-installed, it isn't a pure version of a well known distro, rather a customized OEM variant, as they have been doing since the early days of UNIX, CP/M, MS-DOS, because "differentiation and added value". It is hardly any different from getting that IoT board, that only works with the snowflake distro that was made available on the release date, and nothing else.
concinds 1y ago
“We’ll switch up everything you’re familiar with, but you see, you really should, because security” feels like a really terrible idea. Your browser is still receiving updates. You don’t need to panic or scare people needlessly. They’ll be fine. And the conflation of “unsupported” and “ewaste” is also wrong. Tons of people keep using their computers after EOL, including my mom. Why would they notice or care? Switching your family members to Linux works because they’re your family members. You know how they use computers, their comfort level, their needs. They can call you for help. A repair cafe, helping people they’ll likely never see again? Installing Linux, or heck, things as complex as dual-booting (which they suggest)? You’re kidding! Just leave people alone with their fine, basically-secure computers.
- genocidicbunny 1y ago
  The article did mention that it would probably require multiple sessions with an individual to make the switch due to needing to spend some time figuring out what their needs are. Of course, the mileage will vary, but it seems they at least gave some consideration to your point knowing how people use their computers and their comfort level with them.
- RossBencina 1y ago
  Not sure what universe you live in but Chrome stopped supporting Windows 7 and will stop supporting Windows 10 eventually.
  - trinix912 1y ago
    But it didn't happen overnight, it happened 3 years after Windows 7 EOL. The only security updates Windows 10 users won't receive are patches to Windows itself, for bugs or vulnerabilities which most users are unlikely to run into.
- creatonez 1y ago
  > Your browser is still receiving updates. Browsers have steadily dropped old Windows versions faster than the historical trend. I wouldn't rely on this.
veeti 1y ago
According to "corporate responsibility" and "sustainability" at Microsoft they are committed to "swift, collective action and technological innovation" for "carbon negativity" and "zero waste" by 2030 [1]. Evidently the Windows team did not get the memo, as the e-waste producing minimum processor & TPM requirements in Windows 11 have been shown to be entirely arbitrary. One of the easiest things MSFT could do for the environment could start here. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sustainability https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sus...
- dwattttt 1y ago
  > minimum processor & TPM requirements in Windows 11 have been shown to be entirely arbitrary. I am curious who thinks they managed to show this. My understanding was that the minimum processor requirement was born out of hardware feature requirements. I know Virtualisation Based Security is on by default in Win11, and Intel processors older than 7th Gen don't have Mode-Based-Execution-Control, so they emulate it at a hefty penalty (they call it Restricted User Mode).
ksynwa 1y ago
Does Windows 11 have an equivalent of Windows 10's LTSC/IoT variants with (most of) the bloat and anti-features excised?
- dijit 1y ago
  They do now, actually. it released earlier this year.
  - ksynwa 1y ago
    What's it called?
    - dijit 1y ago
      Windows 11 LTSC
      - ksynwa 1y ago
        https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-11-iot-enterprise-ltsc https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-... Brilliant. Thank you very much.
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  1. That's not what ltsc is. 2. There is even an officially supported version of windows 11 without the hardware requirements
  - ksynwa 1y ago
    Thank you for the valuable input
user_7832 1y ago
Every time I see one of these posts, I get anywhere between disappointed and pet-peeved that they don’t have the complete/nuanced picture. Windows 10 support does not end in October 2025 any more than it ends in January 2032. See what I did there? Without context, claiming “windows 10 does in October” really isn’t true! …And that’s because the LTSC IOT version gets security updates till 2032! Now, installing and running the LTSC iot version can be daunting… about as daunting as installing Linux or any other OS. Which this article anyway suggests. Yes, you’ll need to run the installer again. And yes, you’ll lose app data. But that’s the same as installing a Linux distro! Now, the biggest kerfuffle is that you’ll either need to form a company, or use one to get a legitimate license key… unless of course, there was an open source tool on GitHub that could help you with that. Now, if doing that is beyond your moral compass… then you might be better off with some other OS.
- eviks 1y ago
  I think there is a way to preserve app data by tweaking a config before "upgrading" to win10 ltsc? Or was it only true for win11 ltsc?
  - user_7832 1y ago
    Honestly, I'm not sure - I didn't even know such a thing existed. I reinstalled it a long time ago, and it had gotten a bit sluggish by then anyway.
    - eviks 1y ago
      Yes, the app transfer option is artificially blocked, so there is a way to unblock it and proceed the install as thought it were a regular same-edition update
- user_7832 1y ago
  I wonder why this got downvoted? Do people like fear mongering perhaps? Or maybe some windows 11 dev is sad people aren't using it?
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 1y ago
There's not a kill switch, you know. You can just keep using it.

69 points by T-A 1y ago

I disagree with the framing of running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware as an undesirable option compared to desktop Linux, for several reasons. For context, I have several years' experience in the recycled and refurbished computer market and I regularly sell machines with Linux, ChromeOS Flex, Windows 11 on supported hardware, and Windows 11 on unsupported hardware. The reality is that for the vast majority of people, even the simplest desktop Linux distributions are simply too high a learning curve to be useful outside the very basics. The problem is not that they're not usable when things are working right. The problem is that when things go wrong, problems rapidly begin to require levels of knowledge far outside what a layperson can reasonably acquire. A missing driver, updates that need to be installed, configuration problems - these all run rampant on Linux to degrees far beyond what one experiences with a machine designed for Windows. ChromeOS Flex is a partial solution, as many people are familiar with it, but it is useless on a lot of hardware due to lack of drivers and is not a good fit for more powerful machines. On the other hand, if you install Windows 11 on a machine that doesn't support it, you get all security updates for the next year, and all the drivers you need are typically present in Windows Update. In situations where there is a need for legacy drivers, they usually work after a simple install. I have installed Windows 11 on systems from 2011 and 2012 and had it work flawlessly, and fast enough for basic use. Windows 11 itself isn't perfect, but moving from 10 to 11 is nowhere near the complexity of moving from 10 to Linux. Of course, the big issue is that after that year of security updates, one has to manually download the next "feature update" and install it to get another year of updates. This isn't hard to do per se, but it's approaching the kind of complexity that the average person isn't going to navigate smoothly. I don't have a great solution for this yet, though I am thinking about one. For now, I just include disclaimers and documentation about what to do to make things easier. Even so, compared to something like a Linux major version upgrade, this is quite straightforward. There is no legal or ethical reason not to just run Windows 11 on technically unsupported hardware to keep it alive. I think that's the best way to go.

garbagepatch 1y ago
What is unsupported hardware in this context? Machines without TPM 2.0?
- yourusername 1y ago
  It's not just TPM 2.0, you also need a supported CPU. Everything before Intel 8th gen and Zen+ (including 1st gen Ryzen) is not supported even if you have TPM 2.0
genocidicbunny 1y ago
Can you actually install W11 on a machine that doesn't support TPM2? Iirc, Microsoft recently-ish got rid of the workarounds that allowed installation on machines that don't support TPM2. If there is still another workaround, I'd love to know about it (and especially if it requires a Microsoft account or can be done 'offline') since my daily driver doesn't have TPM2. Also, what sorts of machines are you installing W11 on that are 'unsupported'? My daily driver initially came with W8.1 and for a while, I couldn't update to W10 because there were no W10 wifi drivers available; The manually-installed 8.1 ones were extremely flakey. And this isn't some no-name laptop too, it's a Thinkpad which you'd think would be well supported.
- yourusername 1y ago
  Last i checked you can still use DISM to apply a image to the local drive, this bypasses the installer completely.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  A Windows 11 24H2 ISO will install on a machine w/o a TPM 2.0 module using the command line argument "/Product Server". (You can do this as either an "upgrade" to Windows 10 or on a clean machine by using the Shift-F10 shortcut to get a command prompt and run the setup from there.) I'm on mobile and don't have a reference handy but search-engine this and you'll find instructions.
  - 1y ago

userbinator 1y ago

It's already been a decade(!), yet I still remember the introduction of this amazingly spyware-filled OS like it was yesterday, and the large public backlash it caused. Unfortunately its successor is even worse, which may be why it still has a fanbase today. Meanwhile, I know there are plenty who are still using Win7 and below, and there's even a nontrivial community writing drivers for newer hardware and such.

pjmlp 1y ago
This "Windows now sucks and finally will trigger a wave of users switching to Linux" is something that goes back to Vista days, it is getting tiresome, because has it has been proven, unless it is the Linux kernel being wrapped in Android, ChromeOS or WebOS userland, the common people won't even bother.
- dijit 1y ago
  it's a chicken and egg problem. People don't like uncertainty. Installing after-market operating systems will always be a hobbyist thing. Not entirely dissimilar to cars: some people will go into the details and even of those not many will customise their vehicle. Because "the market" is so small, nobody bothers making things that you can buy off the shelf. And when I mean "off the shelf", I literally mean at a physical store you can actually go to and try things. Having a "developer edition" or a drop down on a website isn't going to move the needle, because you have to know what you're looking for in order for that dropdown to be meaningful. Once we have a handful of manufacturers actually selling Linux based laptops in stores I think we'll get more adoption, however you can see how strong the stranglehold that these giant companies have on the market when you merely compare AMD to Intel; even now AMD remains a niche CPU in stores despite absolutely trouncing Intel for the last half-decade, and seeing any market penetration in stores took years despite being clearly superior in performance, battery life and temperature - Linux, for many people is not "clearly superior" in such clear cut ways.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Additionally, the netbooks wave proved the point that even when there are computers at the store with GNU/Linux pre-installed, it isn't a pure version of a well known distro, rather a customized OEM variant, as they have been doing since the early days of UNIX, CP/M, MS-DOS, because "differentiation and added value". It is hardly any different from getting that IoT board, that only works with the snowflake distro that was made available on the release date, and nothing else.

concinds 1y ago

“We’ll switch up everything you’re familiar with, but you see, you really should, because security” feels like a really terrible idea. Your browser is still receiving updates. You don’t need to panic or scare people needlessly. They’ll be fine. And the conflation of “unsupported” and “ewaste” is also wrong. Tons of people keep using their computers after EOL, including my mom. Why would they notice or care? Switching your family members to Linux works because they’re your family members. You know how they use computers, their comfort level, their needs. They can call you for help. A repair cafe, helping people they’ll likely never see again? Installing Linux, or heck, things as complex as dual-booting (which they suggest)? You’re kidding! Just leave people alone with their fine, basically-secure computers.

genocidicbunny 1y ago
The article did mention that it would probably require multiple sessions with an individual to make the switch due to needing to spend some time figuring out what their needs are. Of course, the mileage will vary, but it seems they at least gave some consideration to your point knowing how people use their computers and their comfort level with them.
RossBencina 1y ago
Not sure what universe you live in but Chrome stopped supporting Windows 7 and will stop supporting Windows 10 eventually.
- trinix912 1y ago
  But it didn't happen overnight, it happened 3 years after Windows 7 EOL. The only security updates Windows 10 users won't receive are patches to Windows itself, for bugs or vulnerabilities which most users are unlikely to run into.
creatonez 1y ago
> Your browser is still receiving updates. Browsers have steadily dropped old Windows versions faster than the historical trend. I wouldn't rely on this.

veeti 1y ago

According to "corporate responsibility" and "sustainability" at Microsoft they are committed to "swift, collective action and technological innovation" for "carbon negativity" and "zero waste" by 2030 [1]. Evidently the Windows team did not get the memo, as the e-waste producing minimum processor & TPM requirements in Windows 11 have been shown to be entirely arbitrary. One of the easiest things MSFT could do for the environment could start here. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sustainability https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/corporate-responsibility/sus...

dwattttt 1y ago
> minimum processor & TPM requirements in Windows 11 have been shown to be entirely arbitrary. I am curious who thinks they managed to show this. My understanding was that the minimum processor requirement was born out of hardware feature requirements. I know Virtualisation Based Security is on by default in Win11, and Intel processors older than 7th Gen don't have Mode-Based-Execution-Control, so they emulate it at a hefty penalty (they call it Restricted User Mode).

ksynwa 1y ago

Does Windows 11 have an equivalent of Windows 10's LTSC/IoT variants with (most of) the bloat and anti-features excised?

dijit 1y ago
They do now, actually. it released earlier this year.
- ksynwa 1y ago
  What's it called?
  - dijit 1y ago
    Windows 11 LTSC
    - ksynwa 1y ago
      https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-11-iot-enterprise-ltsc https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-... Brilliant. Thank you very much.
TiredOfLife 1y ago
1. That's not what ltsc is. 2. There is even an officially supported version of windows 11 without the hardware requirements
- ksynwa 1y ago
  Thank you for the valuable input

user_7832 1y ago

Every time I see one of these posts, I get anywhere between disappointed and pet-peeved that they don’t have the complete/nuanced picture. Windows 10 support does not end in October 2025 any more than it ends in January 2032. See what I did there? Without context, claiming “windows 10 does in October” really isn’t true! …And that’s because the LTSC IOT version gets security updates till 2032! Now, installing and running the LTSC iot version can be daunting… about as daunting as installing Linux or any other OS. Which this article anyway suggests. Yes, you’ll need to run the installer again. And yes, you’ll lose app data. But that’s the same as installing a Linux distro! Now, the biggest kerfuffle is that you’ll either need to form a company, or use one to get a legitimate license key… unless of course, there was an open source tool on GitHub that could help you with that. Now, if doing that is beyond your moral compass… then you might be better off with some other OS.

eviks 1y ago
I think there is a way to preserve app data by tweaking a config before "upgrading" to win10 ltsc? Or was it only true for win11 ltsc?
- user_7832 1y ago
  Honestly, I'm not sure - I didn't even know such a thing existed. I reinstalled it a long time ago, and it had gotten a bit sluggish by then anyway.
  - eviks 1y ago
    Yes, the app transfer option is artificially blocked, so there is a way to unblock it and proceed the install as thought it were a regular same-edition update
user_7832 1y ago
I wonder why this got downvoted? Do people like fear mongering perhaps? Or maybe some windows 11 dev is sad people aren't using it?

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 1y ago

There's not a kill switch, you know. You can just keep using it.