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"Defund the police" was never actually tried. (This is not a defense of defunding -- I agree it would have similarly bad outcomes! But you can't just point at

by loeg 1y ago

"Defund the police" was never actually tried. (This is not a defense of defunding -- I agree it would have similarly bad outcomes! But you can't just point at changes that weren't defunding the police and say it was tried.)

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> "Defund the police" was never actually tried Isn’t this a No True Scotsmen problem? Police budges were trimmed. Police forces were cut. Police remit, in the form of decriminalisation, was reduced. No jurisdiction abolished law enforcement (though San Francisco de facto got close). But I’d say those count as defunding the police to an extent. Even then, we got disaster. Shockingly quickly. Shockingly powerfully. There is no threshold theory that suggests you get magical results cutting the police force by 30% instead of 3%; it’s thus reasonable to extrapolate and assume you get more of the bad.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > No jurisdiction abolished law enforcement (though San Francisco de facto got close). What year did that occur on their budget chart? https://x.com/chrisarvinsf/status/1399863666938310663 https://x.com/chrisarvinsf/status/1399863666938310663
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    De facto, not de jure. SFPD went AWOL for a few months. One can’t complain about that and then claim it would be better if they were fired. (Also, your own chart shows a ‘20 dip.)
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      “De facto abolition of policing” or “dip”? Pick one! Cops throwing a tantrum over a dip would seem to prove a point, too.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        But cops throwing a tantrum causing a crime spike proves their worth. You can’t advocate for abolishing cops and also complain about cops self abolishing.
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        > But cops throwing a tantrum causing a crime spike proves their worth. If we pretend the spike didn't happen during COVID and in other countries, sure. > You can’t advocate for abolishing cops and also complain about cops self abolishing. Sure you can, for the same reason I can get mad at my neighbor if they demolish a shed with a nuke rather than a screwdriver.
- loeg 1y ago
  > Isn’t this a No True Scotsmen problem? No, this is a "this didn't actually happen." > Police budges were trimmed. Police forces were cut. Where were police budgets trimmed and forces cut? They weren't; that's the crucial thing you're describing that did not happen. Otherwise, I agree -- lots of reform changes that sounded good on paper led to bad outcomes. But there's no need to inaccurately call other reforms "defunding."
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Where were police budgets trimmed and forces cut? NYPD’s budget was slashed by over 5% [1]. It was restored by ‘22. [1] https://cbcny.org/research/was-nypd-budget-cut-1-billion https://cbcny.org/research/was-nypd-budget-cut-1-billion
    - loeg 1y ago
      I stand corrected, thanks.

by loeg 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> "Defund the police" was never actually tried Isn’t this a No True Scotsmen problem? Police budges were trimmed. Police forces were cut. Police remit, in the form of decriminalisation, was reduced. No jurisdiction abolished law enforcement (though San Francisco de facto got close). But I’d say those count as defunding the police to an extent. Even then, we got disaster. Shockingly quickly. Shockingly powerfully. There is no threshold theory that suggests you get magical results cutting the police force by 30% instead of 3%; it’s thus reasonable to extrapolate and assume you get more of the bad.

ceejayoz 1y ago
> No jurisdiction abolished law enforcement (though San Francisco de facto got close). What year did that occur on their budget chart? https://x.com/chrisarvinsf/status/1399863666938310663 https://x.com/chrisarvinsf/status/1399863666938310663
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  De facto, not de jure. SFPD went AWOL for a few months. One can’t complain about that and then claim it would be better if they were fired. (Also, your own chart shows a ‘20 dip.)
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    “De facto abolition of policing” or “dip”? Pick one! Cops throwing a tantrum over a dip would seem to prove a point, too.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      But cops throwing a tantrum causing a crime spike proves their worth. You can’t advocate for abolishing cops and also complain about cops self abolishing.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        > But cops throwing a tantrum causing a crime spike proves their worth. If we pretend the spike didn't happen during COVID and in other countries, sure. > You can’t advocate for abolishing cops and also complain about cops self abolishing. Sure you can, for the same reason I can get mad at my neighbor if they demolish a shed with a nuke rather than a screwdriver.
loeg 1y ago
> Isn’t this a No True Scotsmen problem? No, this is a "this didn't actually happen." > Police budges were trimmed. Police forces were cut. Where were police budgets trimmed and forces cut? They weren't; that's the crucial thing you're describing that did not happen. Otherwise, I agree -- lots of reform changes that sounded good on paper led to bad outcomes. But there's no need to inaccurately call other reforms "defunding."
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Where were police budgets trimmed and forces cut? NYPD’s budget was slashed by over 5% [1]. It was restored by ‘22. [1] https://cbcny.org/research/was-nypd-budget-cut-1-billion https://cbcny.org/research/was-nypd-budget-cut-1-billion
  - loeg 1y ago
    I stand corrected, thanks.